Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

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Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:11 pm

Debate: Muggles versus 'True' Lilly

lilly, you falsely claim that no one responds/refutes your 'claims' that australia is the Biblical 'promised Land'. That you falsely 'claim' that australia is the Biblical Zion.

That you 'claim' that the land of egypt is not mentioned in the Bible, that some of the events of Abraham, Joseph, and the Tribes of the Hebrews/Israelites did not take place in Egypt.

You also Falsely claim that Yeshua/Jesus 'did away' with the Torah/Instruction of YHWH-Yahweh.

You also Falsely claim that 'spiritual Israel' replaces the Jews and the geographical Israel.


ALL of your 'claims' are FALSE and I, and Barnacle Bill have refuted ALL your 'claims', proving them to be FALSE and wrong with credentialed Scholarship and credentialed Academic and Theological Sources.

Here is your challenge. Will you run away as always, obfusicate the clear meanings or will you 'stand toe to toe' and support your FALSE 'claims' with credentialed sources that can be verified.

Truth IS NOT ambiguous and subject to personal opinion. TRUTH is FACT/Reality. Below is a Timeline of the Earths Evolution.........from the beginning. Notice the formation and dissolution of the various Super-continents. Also notice the great oxidization of the earths atmosphere event.......all supported by the fossil record. Do you agree or disagree?


The Kloo Store is open!!!!! The words you are talking about ORIGINALLY were scribed in Hebrew, at Sinai. Circa approximately 1,500 BCE............examine this authentic scientific Timeline............Notice, if you will when the Landmasses SEPARATED..........Notice if you will the Oxidization of the Atmosphere.......before you babble anymore nonsense acquire the Genesis Enigma by Andrew Parker......all you are doing is Antisemitic/judeophobic propaganda replacement bullshit...... ..


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/timeline.html



Counting Backwards from Now

60 years ago - Invention of the computer.

130 years ago - Invention of the telephone.

180 years ago - Fossil fuel revolution: coal, trains.

540 years ago - Invention of the printing press.

5,500 years ago - Invention of the wheel, writing.

7,600 years ago - Sahara desert starts forming in northern Africa.

8,800 years ago - The first cities.

10,300 years ago - End of the most recent glacial period: the Wisconsin glaciation.

12,700 - 11,500 years ago - the Younger Dryas.

18,000 years ago - Cultivation of plants, herding of animals. Homo sapiens arrives in the Americas.

21,000 years ago - Last glacial maximum: ice sheets down to the Great Lakes, the mouth of the Rhine, and covering the British Isles.

32,000 years ago - Oldest known cave paintings.

35,000 years ago - Invention of the calendar, extinction of Homo neanderthalensis. Homo sapiens arrives in Europe.

50,000 years ago - Homo sapiens arrives in central Asia.

100,000 years ago - Homo sapiens arrives in the Middle East.

110,000 years ago - Beginning of the most recent glacial period: the Wisconsin glaciation.

130,000 years ago - Beginning of the Eemian interglacial.

200,000 years ago - Beginning of the 2nd most recent glacial period: the Wolstonian glaciation.

250,000 years ago - First Homo sapiens.

350,000 years ago - First Homo neanderthalensis.

380,000 years ago - Beginning of the Hoxnian interglacial.

450,000 years ago - Beginning of the 3rd most recent glacial period: the Kansan glaciation, during which ice sheets reached their maximum extent in the Pleistocene, down to Kansas and Slovakia.

620,000 years ago - Beginning of the Cromerian interglacial.

1.4 million years ago - First firemaking by humans.

1.9 million years ago - First Homo erectus.

2.5 million years ago - First Homo habilis. Beginning of a period of repeated glaciation (loosely speaking, "ice ages").

3 million years - Cooling trend causes year-round ice to form at the North Pole.

3.9 million years ago - First known Australopithecus afarensis.

5 million years ago - Humans split off from other apes (gorillas and chimpanzees).

21 million years ago - Apes split off from other monkeys.

24 million years ago - Cooling trend causes the formation of grasslands; Antarctica becomes covered with ice.

34 million years ago - Gondwanaland finishes breaking up, with Australia and South America separating from Antarctica.

50 million years ago - India begins to collide with Asia, eventually forming the Himalayas.

67 million years ago - Asteroid hit Mexico, causing the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction. End of dinosaurs. 50% of all species died out! Intensification of world cooling trend.

114 million years ago - First modern mammals. World begins to cool.

150 million years ago - First birds.

200 million years ago - Pangaea began to split into separate continents: Gondwana to the south and Laurasia to the north, separated by the Tethys Sea.

205 million years ago - The Triassic-Jurassic extinction. End of large amphibians and many reptiles.

235 million years ago - First dinosaurs, flowers.

250 million years ago - The Permian-Triassic extinction. 90% of all species died out! Formation of the supercontinent Pangaea, with surrounding ocean Panthalassa.

313 million years ago - First reptiles.

365 million years ago - The Late Devonian extinction. 70% of marine species died out! First amphibians, trees.

395 million years ago - First insects on land.

415 million years ago - The Old Red Sandstone Continent, also known as Laurussia, is formed by the collision of Baltica and Laurentia at the beginning of the Devonian.

440 million years ago - The Ordovician-Silurian extinction. Most marine species died out.

670 million years ago - First animals.

630-850 million years ago - The Cryogenian Period, also known as Snowball Earth - the worst ice age in the Earth's history.

800 million years ago - The supercontinent Rodinia begins to break up.

1 billion years ago - Formation of the supercontinent Rodinia


1.3 billion years ago - First plants.

1.6 billion years ago - First blue-green algae.

2.4 billion years ago - The Great Oxidation Event: the Earth's atmosphere gets oxygen.

3 billion years ago - Formation of the first known continent, Ur.
3.8 - 4 billion years ago - The Late Heavy Bombardment: a period during which the Earth, Moon, Venus and Mars were subjected to many asteroid impacts, after a relatively calm period of several million years.

4 billion years ago - First life on Earth.

4.45 billion years ago - Formation of Earth complete; storm of asteroid impacts.

4.5 billion years ago - Formation of the Moon: according to the Giant Impact Hypothesis, this happened when Theia collided with proto-Earth.

4.55 billion years ago - Formation of the Solar System.

13.3 billion years ago - Reionization: the first stars heat and ionize hydrogen gas.

13.3 - 13.7 billion years ago - The Dark Ages, after the formation of hydrogen and before the first stars.

13.7 billion years ago - The Big Bang: beginning of the universe as we know it!





Last edited by muggles on Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:15 pm



The following is the 3 aspects of Zion, none of which include australia......

Zion/Zionism

JESUS AND THE IDENTITY OF GODhttp://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_JIG.htm

Some theologies, e.g., ancient Epicureanism and modern Deism, believe in a god, or gods, but think they have nothing much to do with the world in which we live. Others, like Stoicism, believe that god, or “the divine,” or “the sacred” is simply a dimension of our world, so that “god” and the world end up being pretty much the same thing. Both of these can give birth to practical or theoretical atheism. The first can let its “god” get so far away that he disappears. This is what happened with Marx and Feuerbach in the nineteenth century, allowing the “absentee landlord” of eighteenth-century Deism to become simply an absentee. The second can get so used to various “gods” around the place that it ceases to care much about them. This is what happened with a good deal of ancient paganism in Greece and Rome, until, as Pliny wryly remarks, the arrival of Christianity stirred up pagans to a fresh devotion to their gods.[9]

The Jews believed in a quite different “god.” This god, YHWH, “the One Who Is,” the Sovereign One, was not simply the objectification of forces and drives within the world, but was the maker of all that exists. Several biblical books, or parts thereof, are devoted to exploring the difference between YHWH and the pagan idols: Daniel, Isaiah 40-55, and a good many Psalms spring obviously to mind. The theme is summed up in the Jewish daily prayer: “YHWH our God, YHWH is one!”[10]

Classic Jewish monotheism, then, believed that (a) there was one God, who created heaven and earth and who remained in close and dynamic relation with his creation; and that (b) this God had called Israel to be his special people. This twin belief, tested to the limit and beyond through Israel’s checkered career, was characteristically expressed through a particular narrative: the chosen people were also the rescued people, liberated from slavery in Egypt, marked out by the gift of Torah, established in their land, exiled because of disobedience, but promised a glorious return and final settlement. Jewish-style monotheism meant living in this story and trusting in this one true God, the God of creation and covenant, of Exodus and Return.

This God was utterly different from the pantheist’s “one god.” This is an important point to note: many, including many scholars, have blithely assumed that because Stoics and others talked about “one god” they were saying the same thing as the Jews. This God was also utterly different from the far-away ultra-transcendent gods of the Epicureans. Always active within his world, did he not feed the young ravens when they called upon him?[11]—he could be trusted to act more specifically on behalf of Israel. His eventual overthrow of pagan power at the political would be the revelation of his overthrow of the false gods of the nations. His vindication of his people, liberating them finally from all their oppressors, would also be the vindication of his own name and reputation. In justifying his people, he would himself be justified. In his righteousness, his covenant faithfulness, they would find their own.

This monotheism was never, in our period, an inner analysis of the being of the one God. It was always a way of saying, frequently at great risk: our God is the true God, and your gods are worthless idols. It was a way of holding on to hope. We can see the dynamic of this monotheism working its way out in the manifold crises of second-temple Judaism, with the Maccabees, Judas the Galilean, and above all the two wars of the late 60s and early 130s A.D. revealing how the creational and covenantal theology and worldview remained at work through the period and in different groups.

This God was both other than the world and continually active within it. The words “transcendent” and “immanent,” we should note, are pointers to this double belief, but do not clarify it much. Because this God is thus simultaneously other than his people and present with them, Jews of Jesus’ day had developed several ways of speaking about the activity of this God in which they attempted to hold together, because they dared not separate, these twin truths. Emboldened by deep-rooted traditions, they explored what appears to us a strange, swirling sense of a rhythm of mutual relations within the very being of the one God: a to-and-fro, a give-and-take, a command-and-obey, a sense of love poured out and love received. God’s Spirit broods over the waters, God’s Word goes forth to produce new life, God’s Law guides his people, God’s Presence or Glory dwells with them in fiery cloud, in tabernacle and temple. These four ways of speaking moved to and fro from metaphor to trembling reality-claim and back again. They enabled Jews to speak simultaneously of God’s sovereign supremacy and his intimate presence, of his unapproachable holiness and his self-giving compassionate love.

Best known of all is perhaps a fifth. God’s Wisdom is his handmaid in creation, the firstborn of his works, his chief of staff, his delight. God’s Wisdom is another way of talking about God present with his people in the checkered careers of the patriarchs and particularly in the events of the Exodus. Wisdom becomes closely aligned thereby with Torah and Shekinah.[12] Through the Lady Wisdom of Proverbs 1-8, the creator has fashioned everything, especially the human race. To embrace Wisdom is therefore to discover the secret of being truly human, of reflecting God’s image.[13]............................Out of all this, I have argued in various places that we can, as historians, properly reconstruct Jesus of Nazareth’s sense of vocation.

We can study John the Baptist’s vocation, and Paul’s: why should we not study Jesus’? When we do so, we find that dozens and dozens of lines of inquiry converge to produce a well ordered, coherent, historically credible sense of vocation, emerging in central symbolic actions, hinted at in a hundred cryptic and teasing sayings. Jesus believed he was Israel’s Messiah, the one in whom Israel’s history was to be summed up. Jesus believed he would win the messianic victory over the real enemy and would build the true messianic temple through taking Israel’s fate upon himself and going to the cross.

Jesus believed that in doing so he was not just pointing to or talking about, but was actually embodying, the return of YHWH to Zion. These, though striking and startling, emerge from the world of Second Temple Judaism like the flower growing suddenly out of the plant. They were not expected, but upon inspection this is where they belonged. All the elements of the package were around somewhere in the culture. They are not, repeat not, a retrojection of later Christian theology, not even of later NT theology, which by and large developed in other legitimate ways. They are only credible, but they are totally credible, as the historically reconstructed mindset of Jesus himself. And they form, not the substance of later atonement and incarnational theology, but its historical starting point.

...............................


I have argued elsewhere that a central feature of Jewish expectation, and kingdom expectation at that, in Jesus’ time was the hope that YHWH would return in person to Zion. Having abandoned Jerusalem at the time of the exile, his return was delayed, but he would come back at last. Within this context, someone who told cryptic stories about a king or a master who went away, left his servants with tasks to perform, and then returned to see how they were getting on must—not “might,” must point to this controlling, over-arching metanarrative.

Of course, the later Church, forgetting the first century Jewish context, read such stories as though they were originally about Jesus himself going away and then returning in a “second coming.”

Of course, cautious scholars noticing this, deny that Jesus would have said such things. I propose that here at the heart of Jesus’ work, and at the moment of its climax, Jesus not only told stories about the king, who came back to Zion to judge and to save. He acted as though he thought the stories were coming true in what he himself was accomplishing. This is the context, at last, in which I think it best to approach the question with which this essay began.........................................And Jesus seems to have believed it about himself. The language was deeply coded, but the symbolic action was not. He was coming to Zion, doing what YHWH had promised to do. He explained his action with riddles all pointing in the same direction. Recognize this, and you start to see it all over the place, especially in parables and actions whose other layers have preoccupied us. Why, after all, does Jesus tell a story about a yearning father in order to account for his own behavior?[36] It is this that also accounts for his sovereign attitude to Torah, his speaking on behalf of Wisdom, and his announcement of forgiveness of sins.[37] By themselves none of these would be conclusive. Even if they are allowed to stand as words and actions of Jesus, they remain cryptic.

But predicate them of the same young man who is then on his way to Jerusalem to confront the powers that be with the message and the action of the kingdom of God and who tells stories as he does which are best interpreted as stories of YHWH returning to Zion, then you have reached. I believe, the deep heart of Jesus’ own sense of vocation. He believed himself called to do and be what in the scriptures only Israel’s God did and was.

..................................What are we therefore saying about the earthly Jesus? In Jesus himself, I suggest we see the biblical portrait of YHWH come to life: the loving God, rolling up his sleeves (Isa 52:10) to do in person the job that no one else could do, the creator God giving new life the God who works through his created world and supremely through his human creatures, the faithful God dwelling in the midst of his people, the stern and tender God relentlessly opposed to all that destroys or distorts the good creation, and especially human beings, but recklessly loving all those in need and distress. “He shall feed his flock like a shepherd; he shall carry the lambs in his arms; and gently lead those that are with young” (Isa 40:11). It is the OT portrait of YHWH, but it fits Jesus like a glove. ................

Apparently you don't know shit about 'ZION'. thumbs up

http://mashiyach.com/

The Kingdom of Elohim is represented by Tsiyon (pronounced Tsee-yone or Zion in English), a literal place in Jerusalem, that symbolizes a spiritual place, the seat of Mashiyach's government on this earth. Originally Zion was a small location in Jerusalem, then it became a code name for the whole city of Jerusalem.

For it is said in the Scripture, “Behold, in Tsiyon/Zion I lay a chosen and precious stone for the head of the corner; and whoever believes in him will not be ashamed.” On you therefore who believe is this honor conferred: but to them who do not believe “he is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” And they stumble at it because they believe not the Word from where they were appointed. But you are an elect race, officiating as priests of the Kingdom; a Set Apart people, a redeemed congregation; that you should proclaim the praises of him who called you out of darkness to his precious light: who formerly were not counted as a people but now are the people of Elohim; and also, there were (once) no mercies on you but now mercies are poured out upon you. My beloved, I entreat you as strangers and pilgrims, separate yourselves from all lusts of the body, for they war against the soul. And let your behavior be honorable before all men; so that they who utter evil speeches against you, may see your good actions and may praise Elohim in the day of trial. And be submissive to all the sons of men, for Elohim’s sake; to kings, on account of their authority; and to judges because they are sent by him for the punishment of offenders, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of Elohim, that by your good deeds you may stop the mouth of the foolish who do not know Elohim: As free men, you are not like men who make their freedom a cloak for their wickedness, but as the servants of Elohim. 1 Peter 2:6-16




Throughout Scripture we read of a Kingdom that is not of this earth, but it is shaped from the pattern that is in Heaven. The tabernacle in the wilderness was built according to the specifications that YHWH gave to Moses and within that tabernacle, each of the physical elements are symbols of the spiritual or heavenly Kingdom. It is also interesting to note that Zion is mentioned in 153 verses in the Tanakh... this is the same number of fish the disciples caught in John 21:11. The symbolism is clear, Yeshua taught his disciples how to build the Kingdom of Heaven, as opposed to a religion "about" the Kingdom of Heaven, a very big difference.


We are being trained to know what Tsiyon/Zion is, and what it is not. No religion or people's groups have exclusive rights to Tsiyon, it belongs to the people of Mashiyach regardless of religion, race, color or creed. The Government of Tsiyon/Zion is on the shoulder of Mashiyach. Mashiyach is returning to the Mount of Olives from whence he departed, but this time round Scripture tells us he will be Mashiyach Ben David a much different scenario than when he first came to earth.

There is the Israel of Elohim (spiritual) and there is the other kingdom of Israel of the flesh. Not all who are Israel of the flesh are the Israel of Elohim. If we can look at Jews, Christians or Muslims without judging them by their religion or race, then we are getting closer to ZION, as how it is revealed in Mashiyach. The Kingdom of Elohim is a government, NOT a religion.

Tsiyon/Zion is also the place in our neshama (spirit) where we connect with Mashiyach where our heart receives and gives love for all of Creation, where we can see all others through the eyes of Mashiyach and carry no prejudice towards anyone. The Kingdom is within us, it is not an external government or religion.

You're claim that Israel is an insignificant strip of sand illuminates your ignorance. Israel is the Left/Western Arm of the fertile Crescent..........the Israelites have even made the southern desert areas bloom due to hard work, a foreign concept to you.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/

What is Zionism?
Zionism is the political movement that is implementing the national liberation of the Jewish people. It is based on the assertion that the Jewish people, like any other people, has the right to self-determination; Jews have a right to a national home in their historic homeland. Zionism has made a reality of the "impossible" project of restoration of the Jewish people to our homeland, after nearly 2,000 years of exile. The work of Zionism is far from complete, however.


Zionism has always been a part of Judaism

The ideological and cultural foundations of Zionism have always been present in Jewish tradition. Jews always thought of themselves as a nation or people. The concept of "am Yisrael" - the "people of Israel" or "nation of Israel," has been inherent in Jewish culture from ancient times. Jewish cultural and religious life always centered around the land of Israel. This did not change during two millennia of dispersion.

You're next question madame lilly is: Do you believe the Covenant Yahweh made with Abraham and his descendants concern the land of Israel as the Biblical Promised Land and that the covenant is Eternal? This question requires a Yes or No....if you say no........support your claim with credentialed sources.
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  sharky on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:27 pm

......................For those who falsely claim that Yahshua Messiah/Jesus 'Did away with' the Torah/Laws of YHWH, I challenge you to explain these verses of Scripture.

http://www.eliyah.com/thescriptures/

Matthew 4
1 Then Yahshua was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tried by the devil.

2 And after having fasted forty days and forty nights, He was hungry.

3 And the trier came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of Elohim, command that these stones become bread.”

4 But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of YHWH.’ ”

5 Then the devil took Him up into the set- apart city, set Him on the edge of the Set- apart Place,

6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of Elohim, throw Yourself down. For it has been written, ‘He shall command His messengers concerning you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, so that you do not dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

7 Yahshua said to him, “It has also been written, ‘You shall not try YHWH your Elohim.’ ”

8 Again, the devil took Him up on a very high mountain, and showed Him all the reigns of the world, and their esteem,

9 and said to Him, “All these I shall give You if You fall down and worship me.”

10 Then Yahshua said to him, “Go, Satan! For it has been written, ‘You shall worship YHWH your Elohim, and Him alone you shall serve.’


Yahshua cites Torah 3 Times with Authority....beaware of the False Teachers.

Is the New Testament Yahweh's Word?

Don't Accept The New Testament As Yahweh's Word On The Basis Of Human Tradition
http://www.serveyahweh.org/Religion/newtestament.htm

In the context of the New Testament canon Yahweh's people should not accept that the New Testament is Yahweh's word simply on the basis of human tradition. For Yah'shuah has shown that human tradition is NOT the basis for determining true worship. The New Testament, or any portion of it, should only be accepted as Yahweh's word only where it is fully in harmony with Yahweh's commandment. But if it, or any portion of it, is not fully in harmony with Yahweh's commandment it cannot and should not be accepted as Yahweh's word or commandment!



Live By Every Word That Proceeds Out Of Yahweh's Mouth
Matthew 4:4 reads,

4:4But he answered, "It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’"

In these comments Yah'shuah quoted from Moses' words to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 8:3,

8:3He humbled you, and allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna, which you didn’t know, neither did your fathers know; that he might make you know that man does not live by bread only, but by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh does man live.



Truth Is Yahweh's Word

John 17:17 reads,

17:17Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.

It is therefore clear from Yah'shuah's words that human beings are to live by every word proceeding out of the mouth of Yahweh. He also defines truth as Yahweh's word. Therefore living by the truth is living by Yahweh's word, living by Yahweh's commandment. This is what human beings are to live by, and not by human tradition, especially human tradition contrary to Yahweh's word.



To Believe Yah'shuah/Jesus You Must Believe Moses' Writings
John 5:46-47 reads,

5:46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me. 5:47But if you don’t believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Yah'shuah's words show that it is necessary for one to believe Moses' writings in order to believe him. In other words, those who believe Moses' writings are the ones who believe Yah'shuah, and those who do not believe Moses' writings are the one who do not believe Yah'shuah. Yah'shuah therefore implicitly affirmed that Moses' writings are indeed Yahweh's word.



Yah'shuah Didn't Destroy The Law Or The Prophets

Matthew 5:17-18 reads,

5:17"Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 5:18For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

Yah'shuah therefore affirmed that the law and the prophets, the writings he affirmed as Yahweh's word, would continue in applicability even up to the time of the passing away of heaven and earth. Seeing that heaven and earth are still with us it is indeed the conclusion that nothing has passed away from the law, and it remains in full application.



Yah'shuah Commanded His Disciples To Abide By Moses' Authority

Matthew 23:1-4 reads,

23:1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 23:2saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses’ seat. 23:3All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don’t do their works; for they say, and don’t do. 23:4For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them.

Yah'shuah commanded human beings, including his disciples, to abide by the authority vested in Moses. In other words, he simply affirmed his word in Matthew 5:17-18, on the continuing applicability of the law or Yahweh's word as delivered by Moses to the children of Israel.



Believe What The Prophets Have Spoken

Luke 24:25-27 reads,

24:25He said to them, "Foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 24:26Didn’t the Christ have to suffer these things, and to enter into his glory?" 24:27Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yah'shuah's usage of the writings of Moses and those of the prophets shows that he acknowledged these as Yahweh's word. For in Matthew 4 and 15 he clearly taught that human beings are to live only by Yahweh's word, and here he was indeed teaching his disciples by the writings of Moses and the prophets. Yah'shuah therefore acknowledged that the writings of Moses and the prophets are indeed Yahweh's word.


Live By The Writings In The Law Of Moses, The Prophets And The Psalms

Luke 24:42-49 reads,

24:42They gave him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 24:43He took it, and ate in front of them. 24:44He said to them, "This is what I told you, while I was still with you, that all things which are written in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me must be fulfilled."

24:45Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures. 24:46He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 24:47and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 24:48You are witnesses of these things. 24:49Behold, I send forth the promise of my Father on you. But wait in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high."

According to Yah'shuah the collection of writings that made up Yahweh's word, what all human beings are to live by, is that called the law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms - what is today called the Old Testament. This is synonymous with the Scriptures, according to the author of the above words - Luke.



Yah'shuah's Disciples Of All Nations Are To Observe The Things He Personally Commanded His Disciples
Matthew 28:18-20 reads,

28:18Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 28:19Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28:20teaching them to observe all things which I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Yah'shuah clearly commanded his disciples to teach new disciples of all nations to observe all things that he had commanded his disciples. He commanded them to live by every word that proceeds out of Yahweh's mouth. He also showed them that Yahweh's word is contained in the writings called the law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms (writings), now commonly known as the Old Testament. Therefore, the things that Yah'shuah's disciples are to observe are those that are contained in the writings commonly called the Old Testament. For observing the things in these writings is indeed living by words proceeding out of the mouth of Yahweh, seeing that words that proceeded out of Yahweh's mouth are contained in these writings.



Yahweh's Word To His Disciples Concerning Verification Of Words

Isaiah 8:16-20 reads,

8:16Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 8:17I will wait for Yahweh, who hides his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 8:18Behold, I and the children whom Yahweh has given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Yahweh of Hosts, who dwells in Mount Zion. 8:19When they shall tell you, "Consult with those who have familiar spirits and with the wizards, who chirp and who mutter:" shouldn’t a people consult with their God? On behalf of the living should they consult with the dead? 8:20To the law and to the testimony! If they don’t speak according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.

8:16 clearly shows that the testimony (prophets and writings) and the law (of Moses) should be bound and sealed among Yahweh's disciples. And in matters of light Yahweh's disciples are not to consult with forces of darkness. They are to consult only the law and the testimony. In other words, the very writings that Yah'shuah later used in affirming that he was indeed the Messiah, the law of Moses, the prophets and the writings, are the very same ones that Yahweh commands his disciples to consult. For light is contained in his word, which is recorded in these writings. And anyone speaking contrary to his word in these writings is devoid of light. In other words, any writing that is contrary to the law of Moses, the prophets and the writings is not Yahweh's word, but a word and work of darkness!



Another Test Yahweh Gives His People Concerning Verification Of Words

Deuteronomy 18:9-22 reads,

18:9When you are come into the land which Yahweh your God gives you, you shall not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 18:10There shall not be found with you anyone who makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices sorcery, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, 18:11or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 18:12For whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh: and because of these abominations Yahweh your God does drive them out from before you. 18:13You shall be perfect with Yahweh your God. 18:14For these nations, that you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice sorcery, and to diviners; but as for you, Yahweh your God has not allowed you so to do. 18:15Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen; 18:16according to all that you desired of Yahweh your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I not die. 18:17Yahweh said to me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18:18I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 18:19It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 18:20But the prophet, who shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. 18:21If you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which Yahweh has not spoken? 18:22When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh, if the thing doesn’t follow, nor happen, that is the thing which Yahweh has not spoken: the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him.



Don't Listen To Those Who Practice Abominations

Yahweh clearly warned the children of Israel not to listen to those who practice abominations - the practices of darkness as seen in Isaiah 8:16-20. It is on account of both practising these abominations and listening to the practitioners of these abominations that Yahweh cast out of the land of Canaan those who inhabited it prior to the children of Israel.
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  MoMo on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:30 pm

'true' lilly claims that the events in the Book of Genesis and Exodus did not take place in Egypt/Mizraim......she discounts the original Hebrew language and the work of countless scholars and Theologists and provides not one shred of credentialed support for her claim. How does she explain the Genesis Chapter 10-The Table of Nations? Where did the events of Joseph take place if not in Egypt? Who was the Pharoah? Where did Abraham go if not Egypt? Where did the Hebrew exodus take place if not from Egypt to Canaan? She offers no credentialed support for her allegation. thumbs up


Mizraim means Egypt. Zion is Israel, NOT Australia thumbs up

Europe is a LARGER Continent then Australia. As a matter of FACT; Australia is the SMALLEST/RUNT Continent. And as large it may be, the size of your EGO makes it uncomfortably confining. But hey, that's only one of your many lies and deceptions. Let's talk about Mizraim, the Hebrew word for Egypt. You say it isn't. Where is your credentialed support for your ignorant nonsense? thumbs up

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Mizraim.html

Meaning and etymology of the name Mizraim
Mizraim


Mizraim is a son of Ham, son of Noah (Genesis 12:10). This name is also the common name for Egypt (which is also known as 'the land of Ham,', for instance in Psalm 105:23).

Egypt was known by the names Musuru, Musru, Misir or Masri in other languages, and Mizraim is probably simply a phonetic transliteration into Hebrew of any of them. The word looks identical to what a dual form of would look like (see below). This duality possibly helped to denote Upper and Lower Egypt. The word for Egyptian is .

The similar (masor), a poetic nickname for Egypt that is used on three different occasions (Isaiah 19:6, 2 Kings 19:24 = Isaiah 37:25, Micah 7:12), may shed some understanding on how a Hebrew audience might have interpreted the name Mizraim.

The noun (masor) means siege, entrenchment, and it derives from the verb (sur), bind, besiege. Another derivation of this same verb is the noun , stronghold. HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament notes that a stronghold or walled city may be an instrument of protection during the first stages of a war, but will turn into a lethal trap if a siege last long. A beautiful figurative use of this word occurs in Psalm 31:21, where the author compares himself under siege by his troubles.

The verb from which the noun derives, is part of a group of five different roots. These roots all have different linguistic sources but were perhaps readily incorporated into the Hebrew language due to similar or related meanings, more or less:
(swr) is the assumed root of the words (sawwar), neck and (sawwaron), necklace. The neck is simply a part of the body, but figuratively it is used as seat of strength (Job 39:19) and subsequently as target of defeat (by the placing of the victor's foot on the neck of the conquered - Joshua 10:24). The similarity between a necklace and a besieging army is obvious.
The verb (sur) means to bind or besiege; referred to above.
The verb (sur) means show hostility to, be an adversary. According to BDB Theological Dictionary and HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, this verb is probably a by-form of (sarar), see below.
The verb (sur) means to form or fashion. According to HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, this verb is possibly a by-form of (yasar), form or fashion.
The noun (sur) does not occur in the Bible, but is probably related to words in cognate languages that mean rock or hill. A derivative that does occur in the Bible is (sur), the common Biblical word for rock. BDB Theological Dictionary suggests relations with (sara), see below.

The words and are linguistically closely related. Their respective meanings also shows much kinship:
The verb (sarar) means to bind, be narrow/ confined, be in distress. Derivatives are: (sar), narrow, tight; (sar), distress; (sara), straights, distress; (sarar), suffer distress; (seror), bundle; (mesar), straights, distress. The latter word written in a dual form would yield the name , Mizraim. Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names assumed that this is what Mizraim would have meant to a Hebrew audience and reads Double Distress.
The verb (sarar) means show hostility towards. Derivation (sar) means adversary.
The assumed root (srr) is unused in the Bible but in Arabic it means be sharp. Its common derivative is (sar), pebble, flint.

The name Mizraim means Double Distress or Double Stronghold.



Bible Dictionary

Mizraim definition


the dual form of matzor, meaning a "mound" or "fortress," the name of a people descended from Ham (Gen. 10:6, 13; 1 Chr. 1:8, 11). It was the name generally given by the Hebrews to the land of Egypt (q.v.), and may denote the two Egypts, the Upper and the Lower. The modern Arabic name for Egypt is Muzr.


Mizraim From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizraim
Mizraim (Hebrew: מִצְרַיִם / מִצְרָיִם, Modern Mitzráyim Tiberian Miṣrāyim / Miṣráyim ; cf. Arabic مصر, Miṣr) is the Hebrew name for the land of Egypt, with the dual suffix -āyim, perhaps referring to the "two Egypts": Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt.

Ugaritic inscriptions refer to Egypt as Msrm, in the Amarna tablets it is called Misri, and Assyrian and Babylonian records called Egypt Musur and Musri. The Arabic word for Egypt is Misr (pronounced Masr in Egyptian colloquial Arabic), and Egypt's official name is Gumhuriyah Misr al-'Arabiyah (the Arab Republic of Egypt).

According to Genesis 10, Mizraim (a son of Ham) was the younger brother of Cush and elder brother of Phut and Canaan, whose families together made up the Hamite branch of Noah's descendants. Mizraim's sons were Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim (out of whom came Philistim), and Caphtorim.[1]

According to Eusebius' Chronicon, Manetho had suggested that the great age of antiquity in which the later Egyptians boasted had actually preceded the flood, and that they were really descended from Mizraim, who settled there anew. A similar story is related by medieval Islamic historians such as Sibt ibn al-Jawzi, the Egyptian Ibn Abd-el-Hakem, and the Persians al-Tabari and Muhammad Khwandamir, stating that the pyramids, etc. had been built by the wicked races before the deluge, but that Noah's descendant Mizraim (Masar or Mesr) was entrusted with reoccupying the region afterward. The Islamic accounts also make Masar the son of a Bansar or Beisar and grandson of Ham, rather than a direct son of Ham, and add that he lived to the age of 700. Some scholars think it likely that Mizraim is a dual form of the word Misr meaning "land", and was translated literally into Ancient Egyptian as Ta-Wy (the Two Lands) by early pharaohs at Thebes, who later founded the Middle Kingdom.

But according to George Syncellus, the Book of Sothis, supposedly by Manetho, had identified Mizraim with the legendary first pharaoh Menes, said to have unified the Old Kingdom and built Memphis. Misraim also seems to correspond to Misor, said in Phoenician mythology to have been father of Taautus who was given Egypt, and later scholars noticed that this also recalls Menes, whose son or successor was said to be Athothis.

In Judaism, Mitzrayim has been connected with the word meitzar (מיצר), meaning "sea strait", possibly alluding to narrow gulfs from both sides of Sinai peninsula. It also can mean "boundaries, limits, restrictions" or "narrow place".[citation needed]

However, author David Rohl has suggested a different interpretation: "Amongst the followers of Meskiagkasher [Cush] was his younger 'brother' -- in his own right a strong and charismatic leader of men. He is the head of the falcon tribe -- the descendants of Horus the 'Far Distant'. The Bible calls this new Horus-king 'Mizraim' but this name is, in reality, no more than an epithet. It means 'follower of Asr' or 'Asar' (Arabic m-asr with the Egyptian preposition m 'from'). Mizraim is merely m-Izra with the majestic plural ending 'im'. Likewise, that other great Semitic-speaking people -- the Assyrians -- called the country of the pharaohs 'Musri' (m-Usri)." [2]


Genesis 10 - The Table of Nations
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0110.htm
The tenth chapter of Genesis . . . stands absolutely alone in ancient literature, without a remote parallel, even among the Greeks, where we find the closest approach to a distribution of peoples in genealogical framework . . . The Table of Nations remains an astonishing accurate document. (William F. Albright, cited in Boice)

A. The descendants of Japheth.

1. (1) The three sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.

2. (2) The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras.

The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras.

a. The sons of Japheth: He was the father of the Indo-European peoples, those stretching from India to the shores of Western Europe. They are each linked by linguistic similarities that often seem invisible to the layman but are much more obvious to the linguist.

b. Gomer: From this son of Japheth came the Germanic peoples, from whom came most of the original peoples of Western Europe. These include the original French, Spanish, and Celtic settlers.

c. Magog . . . Tubal, Meshech: These settled in the far north of Europe and became the Russian peoples.

d. Madai: From this son of Japheth came the ancient Medes and they populated what are now Iran and Iraq. The peoples of India also came from this branch of Japheth’s family.

e. Javan: From this son of Japheth came the ancient Greeks, whose sea-faring ways are described in Genesis 10:5.

3. (3) The sons of Gomer.

The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.

a. Ashkenaz: From this son of Gomer came the peoples who settled north of Judea into what we call the Fertile Crescent.

b. Togarmah: From this son of Gomer came the Armenians.

4. (4-5) The sons of Javan (the ancient Greeks).

The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

a. The sons of Javan were: Geographic names that spring from these names in this chapter abound. Linguists have no trouble seeing the connection between Kittim and Cyprus, Rodanim and Rhodes, Gomer and Germany, Meschech and Moscow, Tubal and Tobolsk.

B. The descendants of Ham.

1. (6) The sons of Ham: Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.

The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.

a. Ham: The descendants of Ham are the peoples who populated Africa and the Far East.

b. Cush: Apparently, this family divided into two branches early. Some founded Babylon (notably, Nimrod) and others founded Ethiopia.

c. Mizraim: This is another way the Bible refers to Egypt. Put refers to Libya, the region of North Africa west of Egypt. Canaan refers to the peoples who originally settled the land we today think of as Israel and its surrounding regions.
2. (7-12) The sons of Cush.

The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan. Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.” And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).



a. Cush begot Nimrod: One son of Cush worthy of note is Nimrod. He was a mighty one on the earth, but not in a good way. He ruled over Babel, which was the first organized rebellion of humans against God. The name Nimrod itself means, “let us rebel.”



b. Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord: The context shows that this is not a compliment of Nimrod. The idea is that Nimrod was an offense before the face of God.



i. “This is not talking about Nimrod’s ability to hunt wild game. He was not a hunter of animals. He was a hunter of men - a warrior. It was through his ability to fight and kill and rule ruthlessly that his kingdom of the Euphrates valley city states was consolidated.” (Boice)



ii. A Jerusalem Targum says: “He was powerful in hunting and in wickedness before the Lord, for he was a hunter of the sons of men, and he said to them, ‘Depart from the judgment of the Lord, and adhere to the judgment of Nimrod!’ Therefore it is said: ‘As Nimrod the strong one, strong in hunting, and in wickedness before the Lord.’ ”



iii. Ginzberg quotes from a Jewish legend: “The great success that attended all of Nimrod’s undertakings produced a sinister effect. Men no longer trusted in God, but rather in their own prowess and ability, an attitude to which Nimrod tried to convert the whole world.”

iv. “Hence it is likely that Nimrod, having acquired power, used it in tyranny and oppression; and by rapine and violence founded the domination which was the first distinguished by the name of a kingdom on the face of the earth. How many kingdoms have been founded in the same way, in various ages and nations from that time to the present! From the Nimrods of the earth, God deliver the world!” (Clarke)

3. (13-14) The sons of Mizraim.

Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).

4. (15-19) The sons of Canaan.

Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

a. Canaan begot Sidon: The family of Sidon, the son of Canaan, went north and is related to the Hittites and Lebanese.

b. And the Sinite: Many people believe the Oriental peoples descended from the Sinites.

5. (20) The spread of the descendants of Ham.

These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

C. The descendants of Shem.

1. (21-22) The sons of Shem: Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram.

And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder. The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram.

a. Children were born also to Shem: From Shem comes Elam, who was an ancestor to the Persian peoples; Asshur, who was the father of the Assyrians; Lud was father to the Lydians who lived for a time in Asia Minor; and Aram was father to the Arameans, who we also know as the Syrians. Arphaxad was the ancestor to Abram and the Hebrews.

2. (23) The sons of Aram.

The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash.

a. Uz: Later, a region in Arabia was named after this son of Aram.

Job came from the land of Uz (Job 1:1).

3. (24-30) The sons and descendants of Arphaxad.

Arphaxad begot Salah, and Salah begot Eber. To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east.

a. All these were the sons of Joktan: The names under the son of Joktan (son of Eber, son of Salah, son of Arphaxad) are all associated with various Arabic peoples.

b. And Jobab: The one named Jobab may be the one we know as Job in the Old Testament.

4. (31) The spread of the descendants of Shem.

These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.
5. (32) Summary statement: the nations after the flood.

These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.

a. “Hence one must consider this chapter of Genesis a mirror in which to discern that we human beings are, namely, creatures so marred by sin that we have no knowledge of our own origin, not even of God Himself, our Creator, unless the Word of God reveals these sparks of divine light to us from afar . . . This knowledge the Holy Scriptures reveal to us. Those who are without them live in error, uncertainty, and boundless ungodliness; for they have no knowledge about who they are and whence they came.” (Luther, cited in Boice)
thumbs up


MIZRAIM = EGYPT

thumbs up popcorn

You also deceive about the Replacement/Superssessionism Theology......This is Strike 3 and a few more to go. thumbs up

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/israel3.1-replacement-theology-messianic.htm

The Truth

We believe Israel is God's special people, distinct from the body of Messiah, chosen by Him to be a holy nation and a Kingdom of priests. The election of Israel is irrevocable. . . . We believe the Abrahamic Covenant is an irrevocable, unconditional covenant God made with Jewish people. This covenant provides title to the land of Israel for the Jewish people and promises a descendant (the Messiah) who would come to redeem Israel and bless the entire world. The spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant overflow to all the nations. God will ultimately fulfill every aspect of the covenant in the Messianic Kingdom, both physical and spiritual. . . .
thumbs up

Your LIE!!!!!!!

A. SUPERSESSIONISM OR REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

The meaning of this doctrine is that the church superseded or replaced Israel as God's covenant people. The three claims presented under this heading are:
1. God has rejected Israel,
2. the church has replaced Israel as God's covenant people, and
3. the church is therefore spiritual Israel.

If God has rejected Israel, then that clears the way for a replacement people; and if that people is the church, then the church may be considered spiritual Israel. It is also conceivable that some who believe that Israel is still God's covenant people would consider the church spiritual Israel because it is composed of people whose spirits have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We will now hold the light of Scripture to these claims and possibilities.
thumbs down


Paul follows his emphatic response with, for I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. . . . What is his point? If God had rejected Israel as His covenant people, then every Israelite would be disqualified from the possibility of being saved; yet he is an Israelite who is saved, and that proves that God has not rejected His people.

To sum up, we have noticed two proofs that God has not rejected Israel as His covenant people:
1. By the very meaning of May it never be! in the way that Paul used it in different contexts.
2. By the fact that Paul was a saved Israelite.


Nevertheless, we'll address several passages that need clarification.

b. Romans 11:1-5

1. I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3. "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4. But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5. In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.



Replacement Theology

Its Origins, Teachings and Errors

By Dr. Gary Hedrick, President of CJF Ministries

(With Minor Editing By Rabbi Loren)

http://www.shema.com/Combating%20Replacement%20Theology/crt-004.php

http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

These are serious errors/deformations in your Theology and Worldview. What do you have to say for yourself. You gibber on and on about being persecuted yet you, yourself; are the persecuter. You lie about the Jews and their Sacred scriptures and you attempt to steal their identity and destiny, without being able to read/write Hebrew. Your ignorance and hubris is appalling. Capiche? thumbs up


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wacky

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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  MoMo on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:39 pm

In the above Posts' lillys false claims about Earths evolutionary Timeline; Zion, Torah, Israel and Egypt have ALL been countered and refuted with credentialed scholarship..........She has refused to Posts her definitions of the words: Zion, Torah, Mizraim.......she refuses to Post her supposed Timeline to support her 'theories'.....she 'claims' that she has replaced the Jews and the Geographical Israel and has 'done away' with the Torah/Instruction of Yahweh.

The Truth

We believe Israel is God's special people, distinct from the body of Messiah, chosen by Him to be a holy nation and a Kingdom of priests. The election of Israel is irrevocable. . . . We believe the Abrahamic Covenant is an irrevocable, unconditional covenant God made with Jewish people. This covenant provides title to the land of Israel for the Jewish people and promises a descendant (the Messiah) who would come to redeem Israel and bless the entire world. The spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant overflow to all the nations. God will ultimately fulfill every aspect of the covenant in the Messianic Kingdom, both physical and spiritual. . . .
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  sharky on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:17 pm

awesome thread guys.................. thumbs up

This should be a sticky!!!! cheers

Personally, I don't think lilly can be truthful..........she is too egotistical......... popcorn
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:29 pm

Thanx barney. thumbs up I think you are right..............this is a golden opportunity for her to be honest............to be truthful....................will she?

I think not........ cheers

Let's see how she answers................
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:14 am

soo..........suzi/lilly..............too chicken to debate?

too chicken to 'Stand Toe to Toe'?


I've fully exposed your lies and deceit.......... thumbs up

cat got your tongue?





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cheers
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  true lilly on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:35 pm

Ah "SNOOP", yet another 'name' that demands belief in
long ago debunked myths (while denying all meaningful
discoveries of modern science), to sell more fearful following
of Death Worshiping Religions, kept 'alive' by belief in the
'out of Egypt time line', that "They" LIE is 'Biblical'.

Sorry, but you can't debate what was told us about
THE BEGINNING of Life Forming on One Super Continent,
when you insist on SKIPPING EVERYTHING DESCRIBED
BEFORE that One Super Continent Divided and Formed
new lands (like Turkey and it's Young Mountains), leaving
an INSANELY SHORT time line, that you then try to shove
ALL ANCIENT EARTH & HUMAN HISTORY into, just to try
to 'make a lie out of God's Word', that warned us about
the secret agenda of Liars like "SNOOP", and Promised to
provide Revealing Proofs of The Truth of God's Word, such
as many I have shared over the years.


"OVERSTAYERS" COULD FILL A CITY
Overstayers could fill a city

Peter Mickelburough
EXCLUSIVE:

AUSTRALIA has enough illegal immigrants
on the loose to fill a regional city -
and many are from Britain and America...

...oh, those Americans and Brits who would
rather be illegal Australians,
than legal Brits and Americans...


...hope at least some are on our side,
telling the truth of what 'secular democracy'
did to their once great nations.


SOCIAL MEDIA USED TO SPREAD BRITAIN'S RIOTS
Social media used to spread Britain's riots




The only answer Any Ruling Government has
to mass uprisings of VIOLENT TWITTERING IDIOTS,
IS, 'MORE EFFECTIVE'/DEADLY VIOLENCE.

Just what "tintin/David Icke/Julian Assange et al"
SLAVE to SPREAD OVER ALL THE WORLD.

And what happy slaves they are, enjoying their
5 Star Lifestyles and 5 Star PRIVATE SECURITY,
while driving the poor and powerless to riot and DIE,
TO MAINTAIN "their" WEALTH and SECURITY!


"OVERSTAYERS" COULD FILL A CITY
Overstayers could fill a city

Peter Mickelburough
EXCLUSIVE:
AUSTRALIA has enough illegal immigrants on the loose
to populate a large regional city, documents show.


58 comments on this story

Interactive: Where they came from
Overstaying: Guests abuse their welcome
Editorial: Illegal immigrant crisis needs fixing

...and "They" won't be happy until our country
is like this...!!!



Protesters calling for,
the temporary military government in Egypt,
to cede power,
have been targeted by security forces
wielding tear gas and rubber bullets.

Seven people have been confirmed dead,
so far.


Picture: AFP
Read More
Egypt's latest uprising

"Seven people have been confirmed dead,
so far.
"
, is ONLY the count SO FAR, for THIS,
LATEST round of violence,
"they've" whipped
the twittering masses into, all over the world.

Now if we would only send the UNGRATEFUL,
SELFISH, SELF SERVING, SPOILED BRAT, 'australian'
IDIOTS pushing "their" genocidal agenda here,
to those lands where, like DAVID ICKE Official Forums,
freely sharing the teachings of The Creator of Life,
IS BANNED and CAN GET YOU KILLED, maybe they
would finally see, that the first step to bloody downfalls,
is to turn your back on The Creator of Life and reject
The Wisdom of His Faithful Word.

As The Majority, in these Nations (like their RELIGIOUS Brothers,
The Majority in our OVER CROWDED Neighbouring Nations, using
every trick in the book to get into Australia), SO PROUDLY DO!

Oh, but "they" are DEMANDING DEMOCRACY!... that system
where The Majority of Twittering Idiots are "empowered" with
"voter numbers" to CHANGE OUR LAWS, FOR "THEIRS"!!!

That system that keeps making more of Europe look like...






WATCH VIDEOS:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/police-protestors-in-violent-tahrir-square-clash/story-e6frf7lf-1226200379179#

An Egyptian police vehicle burns as protesters chant during the clashes.

A member of the military council, Major General Mohsen el-Fangari,
said protesters' calls for change ahead of the election
were a threat to the state.


''What is the point of being in Tahrir?'' he asked,
speaking by phone to a private TV channel.


''What is the point of this strike, of the million marches?
Aren't there legal channels to pursue demands
in a way that
won't impact Egypt ... internationally?


''The aim of what is going on is to shake the backbone of the state,
which is the armed forces.''


Middle East and North Africa in turmoil
Anti-government protests are spreading rapidly
through the Middle East and North Africa.
Use this chart to keep up with all of the demonstrations,
day by day.
Click a country on the map or the tabs below to read more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/middle-east-protests/
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:10 am

true lilly wrote: Ah "SNOOP", yet another 'name' that demands belief in
long ago debunked myths (while denying all meaningful
discoveries of modern science), to sell more fearful following
of Death Worshiping Religions, kept 'alive' by belief in the
'out of Egypt time line', that "They" LIE is 'Biblical'.

Sorry, but you can't debate what was told us about
THE BEGINNING of Life Forming on One Super Continent,
when you insist on SKIPPING EVERYTHING DESCRIBED
BEFORE that One Super Continent Divided and Formed
new lands (like Turkey and it's Young Mountains), leaving
an INSANELY SHORT time line, that you then try to shove
ALL ANCIENT EARTH & HUMAN HISTORY into, just to try
to 'make a lie out of God's Word', that warned us about
the secret agenda of Liars like "SNOOP", and Promised to
provide Revealing Proofs of The Truth of God's Word, such
as many I have shared over the years. rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin rolling pin




What are you blind? You didn't see the first two Posts? You don't believe Genesis 10, the Table of Nations, you don't know that life began beneath the sea before it appeared on land? You don't know/understand that human life is quantitatively and qualitateively different then all other life on this Planet and the Universe?





lilly, you falsely claim that no one responds/refutes your 'claims' that australia is the Biblical 'promised Land'. That you falsely 'claim' that australia is the Biblical Zion.

That you 'claim' that the land of egypt is not mentioned in the Bible, that some of the events of Abraham, Joseph, and the Tribes of the Hebrews/Israelites did not take place in Egypt.

You also Falsely claim that Yahshua/Jesus 'did away' with the Torah/Instruction of YHWH-Yahweh.

You also Falsely claim that 'spiritual Israel' replaces the Jews and the geographical Israel.


ALL of your 'claims' are FALSE and I, Senor El Kabong, Monsieur Le Sabrage and Barnacle Bill have refuted ALL your 'claims', proving them to be FALSE and wrong with credentialed Scholarship and credentialed Academic and Theological Sources.

Here is your challenge. Will you run away as always, obfusicate the clear meanings or will you 'stand toe to toe' and support your FALSE 'claims' with credentialed sources that can be verified.

Truth IS NOT ambiguous and subject to personal opinion. TRUTH is FACT/Reality. Below is a Timeline of the Earths Evolution.........from the beginning. Notice the formation and dissolution of the various Super-continents. Also notice the great oxidization of the earths atmosphere event.......all supported by the fossil record. Do you agree or disagree?


The Kloo Store is open!!!!! The words you are talking about ORIGINALLY were scribed in Hebrew, at Sinai. Circa approximately 1,500 BCE............examine this authentic scientific Timeline............Notice, if you will when the Landmasses SEPARATED..........Notice if you will the Oxidization of the Atmosphere.......before you babble anymore nonsense acquire the Genesis Enigma by Andrew Parker......all you are doing is Antisemitic/judeophobic propaganda replacement bullshit...... ..


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/timeline.html



Counting Backwards from Now

60 years ago - Invention of the computer.

130 years ago - Invention of the telephone.

180 years ago - Fossil fuel revolution: coal, trains.

540 years ago - Invention of the printing press.

5,500 years ago - Invention of the wheel, writing.

7,600 years ago - Sahara desert starts forming in northern Africa.

8,800 years ago - The first cities.

10,300 years ago - End of the most recent glacial period: the Wisconsin glaciation.

12,700 - 11,500 years ago - the Younger Dryas.

18,000 years ago - Cultivation of plants, herding of animals. Homo sapiens arrives in the Americas.

21,000 years ago - Last glacial maximum: ice sheets down to the Great Lakes, the mouth of the Rhine, and covering the British Isles.

32,000 years ago - Oldest known cave paintings.

35,000 years ago - Invention of the calendar, extinction of Homo neanderthalensis. Homo sapiens arrives in Europe.

50,000 years ago - Homo sapiens arrives in central Asia.

100,000 years ago - Homo sapiens arrives in the Middle East.

110,000 years ago - Beginning of the most recent glacial period: the Wisconsin glaciation.

130,000 years ago - Beginning of the Eemian interglacial.

200,000 years ago - Beginning of the 2nd most recent glacial period: the Wolstonian glaciation.

250,000 years ago - First Homo sapiens.

350,000 years ago - First Homo neanderthalensis.

380,000 years ago - Beginning of the Hoxnian interglacial.

450,000 years ago - Beginning of the 3rd most recent glacial period: the Kansan glaciation, during which ice sheets reached their maximum extent in the Pleistocene, down to Kansas and Slovakia.

620,000 years ago - Beginning of the Cromerian interglacial.

1.4 million years ago - First firemaking by humans.

1.9 million years ago - First Homo erectus.

2.5 million years ago - First Homo habilis. Beginning of a period of repeated glaciation (loosely speaking, "ice ages").

3 million years - Cooling trend causes year-round ice to form at the North Pole.

3.9 million years ago - First known Australopithecus afarensis.

5 million years ago - Humans split off from other apes (gorillas and chimpanzees).

21 million years ago - Apes split off from other monkeys.

24 million years ago - Cooling trend causes the formation of grasslands; Antarctica becomes covered with ice.

34 million years ago - Gondwanaland finishes breaking up, with Australia and South America separating from Antarctica.

50 million years ago - India begins to collide with Asia, eventually forming the Himalayas.

67 million years ago - Asteroid hit Mexico, causing the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction. End of dinosaurs. 50% of all species died out! Intensification of world cooling trend.

114 million years ago - First modern mammals. World begins to cool.

150 million years ago - First birds.

200 million years ago - Pangaea began to split into separate continents: Gondwana to the south and Laurasia to the north, separated by the Tethys Sea.

205 million years ago - The Triassic-Jurassic extinction. End of large amphibians and many reptiles.

235 million years ago - First dinosaurs, flowers.

250 million years ago - The Permian-Triassic extinction. 90% of all species died out! Formation of the supercontinent Pangaea, with surrounding ocean Panthalassa.

313 million years ago - First reptiles.

365 million years ago - The Late Devonian extinction. 70% of marine species died out! First amphibians, trees.

395 million years ago - First insects on land.

415 million years ago - The Old Red Sandstone Continent, also known as Laurussia, is formed by the collision of Baltica and Laurentia at the beginning of the Devonian.

440 million years ago - The Ordovician-Silurian extinction. Most marine species died out.

670 million years ago - First animals.

630-850 million years ago - The Cryogenian Period, also known as Snowball Earth - the worst ice age in the Earth's history.

800 million years ago - The supercontinent Rodinia begins to break up.

1 billion years ago - Formation of the supercontinent Rodinia


1.3 billion years ago - First plants.

1.6 billion years ago - First blue-green algae.

2.4 billion years ago - The Great Oxidation Event: the Earth's atmosphere gets oxygen.

3 billion years ago - Formation of the first known continent, Ur.
3.8 - 4 billion years ago - The Late Heavy Bombardment: a period during which the Earth, Moon, Venus and Mars were subjected to many asteroid impacts, after a relatively calm period of several million years.

4 billion years ago - First life on Earth. wave


4.45 billion years ago - Formation of Earth complete; storm of asteroid impacts.

4.5 billion years ago - Formation of the Moon: according to the Giant Impact Hypothesis, this happened when Theia collided with proto-Earth.

4.55 billion years ago - Formation of the Solar System.

13.3 billion years ago - Reionization: the first stars heat and ionize hydrogen gas.

13.3 - 13.7 billion years ago - The Dark Ages, after the formation of hydrogen and before the first stars.

13.7 billion years ago - The Big Bang: beginning of the universe as we know it!







Last edited by le sabrage on Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:20 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:18 am

The Genesis enigma: How DID the Bible describe the evolution of life 3,000 years before Darwin?

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200486/The-Genesis-enigma-How-DID-Bible-evolution-life-3-000-years-Darwin.html#ixzz1eMgMePRe

The revalation came to Professor Andrew Parker during a visit to Rome. He was in the Sistine Chapel, gazing up at Michelangelo's awesome ceiling paintings, when a realisation struck him with dizzying force.
'A Biblical enigma exists that is on the one hand so cryptic it has remained camouflaged for millennia, and on the other so obvious one cannot miss it.'
The enigma is that the order of Creation as described in the Book of Genesis, and so powerfully depicted in the Sistine Chapel by the greatest artist of the Renaissance, has been precisely, eerily confirmed by modern evolutionary science.

Yet how on earth could this be possible? And why had nobody noticed it before?
Such was the starting point of Parker's jaw-dropping new book, The Genesis Enigma: an astounding work which seeks to prove that the ancient Hebrew writers of the Book of Genesis knew all about evolution - 3,000 years before Darwin.
It takes a journey back through aeons of geological time, and also into the minds and imaginations of the ancient Israelites.
Andrew Parker is a leading scientist in his field: a research fellow at Oxford University, research leader at the Natural History Museum, and as if that weren't enough, a professor at Shanghai's Jiao Tong university.
As a scientist he never paid much heed to the Book of Genesis, assuming, like most of his colleagues, that such primitive mythology - which is believed to have been compiled from several sources between 950 and 500 BC - has long since been 'disproved' by hard scientific fact.
But after his Sistine Chapel moment, he went back to look at Genesis in more detail. And what he read astonished him. It was even, he says, 'slightly scary'.
Somehow - God alone knew how - the writer or writers of that ancient text had described how the evolution of life on earth took place in precise detail and perfect order.
Our ancestors possessed a truly timeless wisdom It is always disturbing and haunting to encounter an ancient wisdom that seems to anticipate or even exceed our own.
More fanciful writers immediately start to theorise wildly: that those who built the pyramids, or Stonehenge, must have been guided by super-intelligent aliens, that sort of thing.
Andrew Parker, a scientist and proud of it, has no time for such twaddle. But he does gradually come to understand, in the course of his investigations, that our ancestors of thousands of years ago, though they may not have had iPods and plasma-screen televisions, nevertheless possessed a wisdom that was, quite literally, timeless: as true now as it was then.
In the Book of Genesis, God first and most famously creates heaven and earth, but 'without form', and commands: 'Let there be light.' A perfect description of the Big Bang, that founding moment of our universe some 13 billion years ago, an unimaginable explosion of pure energy and matter 'without form' out of nothing - the primordial Biblical 'void'.
He then creates the dry land out of the waters, but it is the water that comes first. As Parker points out, scientists today understand very similarly that water is indeed crucial for life.

When 'astrobiologists' look into space for signs of life on other planets, the first thing they look for is the possible presence of water.
On the third day, we are told: 'God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."'
Now factually speaking, grass didn't evolve until much later. In the Triassic and Jurassic epochs, the dinosaurs knew only plants such as giant conifers and tree ferns. But since grass did not in fact evolve until much later, a sternly literal-minded scientist would declare the Bible wrong, and consign it to the nearest wheelie bin.
But wait a minute, says Parker. If you take 'grass, herb and tree' to mean photosynthesising life in general, then this is, once again, spot on.

The very life forms on earth were single-celled bacteria, but the first truly viable bacteria were the 'cyanobacteria' - those that had learned to photosynthesise.
As a result, they began to expire oxygen, creating an atmosphere that could go on to support more and more life. They were the key to life on earth.
Naturally, says Parker, 'the ancient Israelites would have been oblivious to any single-celled life form, let alone cyanobacteria', but 'grass' as a loose description of life forms that photosynthesise?

On the fourth day, Genesis famously becomes confusing. On the first day, remember, God has already created light, and made Day and Night. But it isn't until day four that he makes the lights in heaven, the greater light to rule the day and the lesser the night.
Hang on - so he made 'Day' three days before he made the Sun? Houston, I think we have a problem.

Yet the writers of Genesis were just as well aware as us, surely, that the sunrise causes the day. You don't need a degree in astronomy to work that one out. What on earth did they mean?
Here, The Genesis Enigma comes up with a stunningly ingenious answer. For Parker argues that day four refers to the evolution of vision.
Until the first creatures on earth evolved eyes, in a sense, the sun and moon didn't exist. There was no creature on earth to see them, nor the light they cast.

When Genesis says: 'Let there be lights... To divide the day from the night,' it is talking about eyes.
'The very first eye on earth effectively turned on the lights for animal behaviour,' writes Professor Parker, 'and consequently for further rapid evolution.'
Almost overnight, life suddenly grew vastly more complex. Predators were able to hunt far more efficiently, and so prey had to evolve fast too - or get eaten.

The moment that there were 'lights', or eyes, then life exploded into all its infinite variety.
And yet again, that's what Genesis says happened, and in the correct environment too. In the sea.
For on the very next day of Creation, the fifth day: 'God said, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life."'

That is exactly what happened. Life that had hitherto been lived in the dark, by simple, slow-moving, worm-like creatures, erupted into dazzling diversity. We know all about it from the world famous Burgess Shale fossils.
They were discovered in the summer of 1909 by one Charles Doolittle Walcott, on holiday with his family in the Canadian Rockies. Walcott began to chip away at the shale with his geological hammer, and quite by chance stumbled upon one of the greatest finds in all science.
For the shale records what happened on our planet around 508 million years ago, long before the first dinosaurs: the 'Cambrian expolosion,' which most scientists now think was indeed the direct result of the evolution of vision.
Life on earth exploded in all its infinite variety The life-forms discovered look like nothing else: fabulous, phantasmagoric, alien beings. One had five eyes, and a long wavy snout with jaws on the end. Another looked like an octopus with its head stuck in a beaker, and another can only be described as 'a swimming pea with a pair of beady eyes, bull's horns, a pair of "hands" and a fish's tail.'
Others resemble balls of spines, vase-shaped pin-cushions, or badminton shuttlecocks with chameleon-like tongues. Anyone who doubts the power of evolution by natural selection only has to look at the Burgess Shale fossils.
How does Genesis describe the teeming aquatic life of the Cambrian explosion? 'And God said, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life." ' Immediately following the creation of vision.
How did the writer/writers know that life suddenly diversified into this rich and staggering variety, under the oceans, not on land? Why would a very much land-based people, pastoralists and shepherds, even think like this?
After the Cambrian come the Ordovician, Silurian and Devonian periods - or the appearance of 'great whales', as Genesis succinctly puts it.
How better to describe those epochs which gave us such monsters of the deep as Dunkleosteus, a carnivorous armoured fish whose appearance, says Parker, was 'simply terrifying'. Some 35ft long, 'the size of a small coach', with massive, bone-crunching jaws, even its eyes were armoured.
And after the sea monsters come the birds, the animals, cattle, and finally, homo sapiens. All present and correct, and all still in the right order. Once again, 'In describing how the planet and life around us came to be, the writer of the Genesis narrative got it disturbingly right'.
So what should we make of the extraordinary findings of The Genesis Enigma?
Professor Parker is clear on this subject. 'It would be a great shame if my findings were either misused in an attempt to suggest that scientists themselves are unsure about science, or pounded out of all recognition into support of the seven-day creation premise.'
There is no doubt that literal-minded Creationists do a disservice to the triumphant achievements of modern science, and to the beauty and poetry of the Bible. Evolution is taking place around us all the time. It's why the MRSA superbug has become so dangerously immune to antibiotics, why the race is on to beat the swine flu virus.
Nevertheless, when Parker comes to explaining how the writers of Genesis knew what they knew, he can only conclude that it was due to 'divine intervention', or 'a lucky guess'. Since the odds of the latter seem fantastically remote, Parker tentatively suggests the former.



That totally refutes your unsupported claims. You pervert The Word of God, you dismiss and attack the Torah, Gods instruction to humanity, you claim to replace the jews and Israel based upon distorted and deformed interpretation of Hebrew Texts.......you.........suzi/lilly are the proverbial False Prophet, a pessimist, it took you a week to respond to an honest debate and you lied and bullshitted... thumbs up



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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  sharky on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:35 pm

Mikdash
Yeshivat Har Etzion


Shiur #10: The History of the Resting of the Shekhina (Part I)
The Creation of the World and the Mikdash

Rav Yitzchak Levi

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/mikdash/10mikdash.htm


From now on, our lectures will deal with the history of the resting of God's Shekhina in the world from the time of creation until the revelation at Sinai. The first lecture will discuss the beginnings of the resting of the Shekhina – the creation of the world.


I. THE MIKDASH PRECEDED THE WORLD

Chazal assert in several places and in different formulations that the Mikdash preceded the creation of the world:


It was taught: The following seven things were created before the world: The Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehinom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple and the name of the Messiah… The Temple, as it is written: "A glorious throne exalted from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary" (Yirmiyahu 17:12). (Pesachim 54a)


Six things preceded the creation of the world. Some were created, some arose in thought to be created: The Torah and the Throne of Glory were created… The patriarchs, Israel, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah arose in thought to be created… The Temple, from where? As it is stated: "A glorious throne exalted from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary" (Yirmiyahu 17:12). (Bereishit Rabba 1, 4)


Rav Chizkiya sat before Rav Elazar. He said to him: How many lights were created before the world was created? He said to him: Seven, as follows: the light of Torah, the light of Gehinom, the light of the Garden of Eden, the light of the Throne of Glory, the light of the Temple, the light of repentance, and the light of the Messiah. (Zohar, Tzav, 34b)


When Chazal say that something preceded the creation of the world, they mean that it stands at the very foundation of the world and that it is connected to the purpose and objective of the world. This is similar to the thought that precedes action; essentially, these things represent the idea of the world. Indeed, all the items mentioned in the gemara in Pesachim – Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehinom, the Throne of Glory, and the Temple - involve a clear and felt Divine presence. This is certainly true of the Temple, which represents the presence of God in the material world.[1]


II. THE TEMPLE AND THE CREATION OF THE WORLD

In various places, Chazal describe the physical connection between the creation of the world and the site of the Mikdash – Mount Moriya – and especially the even ha-shetiya (the "foundation stone") in its center. I wish to review some of these passages and explain them.


1. "From Which the World was Founded"
There was a stone there from the days of the early prophets, called shetiya, raised three fingers from the ground, upon which at first the ark rested. After the ark was removed, the incense brought into the innermost chamber was burned upon it. Rabbi Yose said: From it the world was founded, as it is stated: "Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God has shone forth" (Tehilim 50:2). (Tosefta, Yoma 2:14).

It was called shetiya. [A Tanna] taught: From it the world was founded. This was taught in accordance with the one who says: The world was created from Zion [Rashi: "Zion was created first, and clods of earth were attached around it in all directions until the far corners of the world."] For it was taught: …And the Sages say: It was created from Zion, as it is stated: "A psalm of Asaf. The mighty one, God, the Lord" (Tehilim 50:1); and it says: "Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty" (ibid. v. 2) – from it the beauty of the world was perfected. (Yoma 54b)[2]


That which the verse states: "May He send you help from the sanctuary, and strengthen you out of Zion" (Tehilim 20:3). When the Holy One, blessed be He, will come to redeem Israel, He will redeem them only from Zion. Why? Because from the beginning it was from there that the world was perfected. As it is stated: "Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God has shone forth" (Tehilim 50:2). (Aggadat Bereishit, ed. Buber, 54a)


The various midrashim describe the "foundation stone" as the core of all of creation, the Archimedean point from which the entire world was created. The Ramban also writes in his commentary to Bereishit 1:1 that God created the world ex nihilo from some starting point, "and it seems to me that this point… is what the Sages call the 'foundation stone,' from which the world was founded."

This, then, is the point of origin of the entire world: the point that connects the Infinite to the finite, the spiritual to the material, and that embraces the entire plan for creation. It is absolutely clear, then, why it was precisely at this point that the Mikdash was constructed, since the essence of the Mikdash involves bringing together the entire world and raising it to its source, to God, and connecting the infinite Divine world to the finite human world.


In light of this, we can well understand the special sanctity of the place, which stands, in a certain sense, above time and place.[3] Eternal sanctity rests in the place where expanse was created, at the site of the connection between ayin and yesh – nothingness and existence - and that connects beginning to end, the creation with the future redemption (as is found in Aggada Bereishit). The sanctity found there is a sanctity of place – and not the sanctity of the structure – because it depends on Divine choice; Divine choice is eternal, and not dependent on time and place. The revelations of this special sanctity vary over time, and prior to the days of David and Shlomo it was revealed at different times – to Adam in the Garden of Eden, to Kayin and Hevel, to Noach and to Avraham – even before it received halakhic validity.


This sanctity is different in its essence from other sanctities of place. The sanctity of Mount Sinai and that of the different stops of the Mishkan were dependent upon revelation, and the sanctity of Eretz Yisrael is dependent upon conquest,[4] but the sanctity of the site of the Mikdash stems from the primal Divine connection to the place. As the Rambam writes: "Because the sanctity of the Temple and of Jerusalem is because of the Shekhina, and the Shekhina is never cancelled" (Hilkhot Bet ha-Bekhira 6:16).


The Torah can therefore command, "There you shall seek Him, at His dwelling, and there shall you come" (Devarim 12:5), for the unique qualities of the place exist already from the time of the creation of the world, and Israel's mission is to seek it out and find it.


2. "The Navel of the Earth" Other midrashim liken the Temple and the even ha-shetiya to a navel:


Just as the navel is placed at the center of the human body, so Eretz Yisrael is placed in the center of the world. As it is stated: "And that dwell at the navel of the earth" (Yechezkel 38:12). And from there the foundation of the world issues forth. As it is stated: "A psalm of Asaf. The mighty one, God, the Lord, has spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof" (Tehilim 50:1) – from where: "Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God has shone forth" (ibid. v. 2). Eretz Yisrael is located in the center of the world, and Jerusalem is in the center of Eretz Yisrael, and the Temple is in the center of Jerusalem, and the Heikhal is in the center of the Temple, and the ark is in the center of the Heikhal, and the even ha-shetiya is before the ark from which the world was founded. (Tanchuma, Kedoshim 10)


Therefore it is called even ha-shetiya, because from there is the navel of the earth, and to there the entire earth is stretched, and upon it the sanctuary of the Lord stands. As it is stated: "And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house" (Bereishit 28:22) (Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer, chap. 35; parallel in Midrash Tehilim 91)


The metaphor of a navel has another dimension, as well. It is through the navel that the fetus receives its nourishment and vitality, and without it the fetus cannot live. Similarly, the entire world receives its vitality from its connection to God; this takes place in the physical world at the site of the Mikdash. The Mikdash is not only the place from which the entire world was created; it also represents the fact that the world belongs to God. It is from there that He oversees the world and sustains it. Just as the fetus receives its nourishment and vitality through the navel, so, too, the entire world receives its bounty and blessing from the place of the Mikdash.


In previous lectures we saw various expressions of this idea of the Mikdash serving as the source of blessing in this world. Across the generations, the people of Israel brought the omer to the Mikdash on Pesach, from which blessing was bestowed on the grain, the two loaves on Shavuot, from which blessing was bestowed on the fruit of the trees, and the libation of water on Sukkot, from which blessing was bestowed upon the rainfall. The individual Jew brings his first fruits to the Mikdash and thanks God for the good earth that had been given him. This is all in the sense of: "For all things come of you, and of your own have we given you" (I Divrei Ha-yamim 29:14).


3. The Mikdash in the Center of the Settled World The sources cited above raise another point: the Mikdash is the center of the world. The Maharal emphasizes this point in several places and notes a variety of meanings assigned to it:


And therefore the altar and the Temple were chosen for Divine service, there being the center of the settled world, not tending to the extremes, the extremes not being good… Because sin comes from inclining to one of the extremes, and since man was created from the middle, it is easy for him to return to the middle, to the place where he was created, and there sin is removed from him, sin being the inclination to one of the extremes. (Gur Arye on Bereishit 2:7, s.v. she-teheh lo kapara)


In his commentary to the dispute between Kayin and Hevel, the Maharal writes:


He who thinks that they were arguing over the Temple… in truth the Temple includes the forces of both Hevel and Kayin. This is evidenced by the fact that [the combination of] wool and linen is permitted in the Temple. Therefore, each of them desired the Temple… It is certainly fitting that they should disagree about the Temple, because it is in the center of the world and the middle is shared by the two extremes that are opposites. And therefore Kayin and Hevel, being the extremes, each desired the Temple common to both extremes. (ibid. 4:8, s.v. yesh ba-zeh midrashei aggada)


And regarding Yaakov's ladder, he writes:


The Temple, inasmuch as it is the house of the Shekhina and man goes there to serve God, has these two sides relating to the upper and the lower worlds. It embraces everything. The celestial beings must not say, "This is ours," for it is [also] man's domain, and humans must not say, "This is ours," for it is the Temple of God. And therefore it is fitting that the Temple stand under the middle of the slope of the ladder, for the ladder is the interchange between upper and lower worlds, going from one side to the other, and the Temple embraces both under the middle of the ladder. Therefore, it is fitting and correct that the Temple be under the middle of the ladder. (ibid. 28:16, s.v. amar Rav Elazar)


In Gevurot Hashem, the Maharal writes:


The Temple is similar to the heart, which is found in all living creatures, for it is through the heart that all the organs receive their vitality, and so, too, the Temple gives life to the entire world. Therefore, the Temple is in the middle of the civilized world, just as the heart is in the middle of the body. (Gevurot Ha-Shem, chap. 71)[5]


What emerges from these various sources is that great importance is attached to the fact that Jerusalem, the Mikdash, and the altar are all in the center of the world. Moving towards the middle involves moving away from the extremes, which are connected to sin, and achieving atonement. The middle embraces everything, and unites heaven and earth; the Mikdash resembles a heart, which is in the center of the body, and bestows vitality upon the entire world.


"The principle of the middle" explains many mitzvot and laws connected to the Mikdash. Let me offer just three examples:


1) The mitzva of undertaking a pilgrimage on the Pilgrimage festivals, in accordance with which people from all over the world head out to and arrive in the middle, the heart, the Temple.


2) The ten levels of sanctity mentioned in the mishna (Keilim 1:6-9) are described as constructed out of ten circles, the innermost being the Holy of Holies – the midpoint from which the entire world receives its sanctity.


3) The Sanhedrin – the High Court, to which a person may turn if he did not receive an answer from a lower court (the court in his home town, the court sitting at the entrance to the Temple Mount, and the court sitting at the entrance to the Temple courtyard) – convenes in Lishkat Ha-gazit (the Chamber of Hewn Stones) adjacent to the altar (see Sanhedrin 11:2; Tosefta, Chagiga 2:9, Shekalim 3:27, Sanhedrin 7:1; Bavli, Sanhedrin 88b; Yerushalmi, Makkot 2:6). This allowed, and will again in the future allow, for the fulfillment of the words of the prophet: "For out of Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem" (Yeshayahu 2:3; Mikha 4:2). Zion is the center, from which justice goes out to the entire world.


Of course, this principle also accounts for the material blessing that the Temple bestows upon the entire world, as explained in the previous section.


III. THE MIKDASH AS THE COMPLETION OF CREATION

Another aspect of the connection between the creation of the world and the Mikdash is the idea that the Mishkan and the Mikdash are the goal of creation, and it was only with their construction that creation was completed. For example:


Another explanation: "So was ended all the work" (I Melakhim 7:51; II Divrei Ha-yamim 5:1) – it does not say here "the work," but rather "all the work:" the work of the six days of creation. "From all His work that God had created and formed (la-asot, lit. 'to form')" (Bereishit 2:3) – it does not say here "and formed," but rather "to form:" there is still another work. When Shlomo came and built the Temple, the Holy One, blessed be He, said: Now the work of heaven and earth is complete – "So was ended all the work." Therefore he was called Shlomo, for the Holy One, blessed be He, completed (hishlim) the work of the six days of creation through his handiwork. (Pesikta Rabbati, parasha 6)


Another explanation: "Who has established all the ends of the earth" (Mishlei 30:4) – this refers to Moshe, who established the Tent of Meeting, with which the world was established. It does not say "to set up the Mishkan," but rather "to set up with the Mishkan" (le-hakim et ha-mishkan" (Bamidbar 7:1) – the world was set up with it. For until the Mishkan was erected, the world was unstable; but after it was erected, the world became firm. Therefore it says: "And it came to pass on the day that Moshe had finished setting up (with) the Mishkan." (Midrash Mishlei, parasha 30, letter 4)


"To set up the Mishkan"… There we have learned (Avot 1:2): The world stands on three things – on the Torah, on the Divine service, and on acts of loving-kindness. And Moshe mentioned all three of them in one verse: "You in Your loving-kindness have led forth Your people whom you have redeemed" (Shemot 15:13) – this is loving-kindness; "You have guided them in Your strength" – this is the Torah…; "To Your holy habitation" – this is the service in the Mishkan and in the Mikdash… He guided them by virtue of the Torah which they had received before the erection of the Mishkan. What was the world like at that time? It was like a stool with two legs, which cannot stand and is unstable. When a third leg was made for it, it became firm and it stood. So, too, when the Mishkan was made… immediately, it became firm and stood. For at first the world had only two legs, loving-kindness and the Torah, and it was unstable. When a third leg was made for it, namely, the Mishkan, it immediately stood. (Bamidbar Rabba, parasha 12)[6]


According to the midrashim, the Mishkan and the Mikdash are essentially a continuation of the creation and its completion. Before they were built, the world was lacking, and the goal of creation had not been attained. Moreover, before the Mikdash was built, the existence of the world was not absolute and stable, for the world rests, among other things, upon the Divine service, the heart of which is in the Temple.


IV. PARALLELS BETWEEN THE CREATION OF THE WORLD AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE MISHKAN

This connection finds expression in Scripture in a number of stylistic parallels between the Mishkan and creation:


1) Both are called melakha, "work" (Bereishit 2:2-3; Shemot 31:3, 5; and many other places).

2) The root, ayin-sin-heh, repeats itself many times in both contexts.

3) Wisdom, understanding and knowledge:


The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding He established the heavens. By knowledge the depths were broken up. (Mishlei 3:19-20)


See, I have called by name Betzalel… And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship (Shemot 31:2-3)[7]


4) "Seeing" at the completion of the work:


And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was good. (Bereishit 1:31)


And Moshe saw all the work, and, behold, they had done it as the Lord had commanded, even so they had done it. (Shemot 39:43)


5) Completion of the work:


Then the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their host. And by the seventh day God ended the work which He had done. (Bereishit 2:1-2)


Thus was the work of the tabernacle of the Tent of Meeting finished: and the children of Israel did according to all that the Lord commanded Moshe, so they did… So Moshe finished the work. (Shemot 39:32; 40:33)


6) A blessing at the completion of the work:


And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and performed. (Bereishit 2:3)


And Moshe saw all the work, and, behold, they had done it as the Lord had commanded, even so they had done it: and Moshe blessed them. (Shemot 39:43)


7) Ending with the sanctity of Shabbat (Bereishit 2:1-3; Shemot 31:12-17).


Chazal noted these parallels in several places. The Tanchuma draws a parallel between the order of creation and the order of the building of the Mishkan:


Rav Yaakov be-Rav Asi said: Why does it say: "Lord, I love the habitation of Your house, and the place where Your glory dwells" (Tehilim 26:Cool? Because it is equivalent to the creation of the world. How so?


On the first day it says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Bereishit 1:1); and it says: "Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain" (Tehilim 104:2). And regarding the Mishkan, what does it say - "And you shall make curtains of goats' hair" (Shemot 26:7).


On the second day, "Let there be a firmament" (Bereishit 1:6), and it mentions division, as it is stated: "And let it divide water from water." And regarding the Mishkan, it says: "And the veil shall be for you as a division" (Shemot 26:33).


On the third day, it mentions water, as it says: "Let the waters be gathered" (Bereishit 1:9). And regarding the Mishkan, it says: "You shall also make a laver of brass, and its pedestal also of brass… and you shall put water in it" (Shemot 30:18).


On the fourth day, He created the lights, as it says: "Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven" (Bereishit 1:14). And regarding the Mishkan, it says: "And you shall make a candlestick of pure gold" (Shemot 25:31).


On the fifth day, He created the birds, as it is stated: "Let the waters swarm abundantly with moving creatures that have life, and let birds fly above" (Bereishit 1:20). And corresponding to them in the Mikdash – offering sacrifices from sheep and birds.


On the sixth day, man was created, as it says: "So God created man in his own image" (Bereishit 1:27) – He formed him with dignity. And regarding the Mishkan it says "man," namely, the High Priest who was anointed to serve and attend before God.


On the seventh day: "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished" (Bereishit 2:1). And regarding the Mishkan, it says: "And all the work was finished."


Regarding the creation of the world, it says: "And God blessed" (Bereishit 1:28). And regarding the Mishkan, it says: "And Moshe blessed them" (Shemot 39:43). Regarding the creation of the world, it says: "And God ended" (Bereishit 2:2), and regarding the Mishkan, it says: "And it happened on the day that it was finished." Regarding the creation of the world, it says: "And He sanctified it" (Bereishit 2:3), and regarding the Mishkan, it says: "And Moshe anointed it and sanctified it."


Why is the Mishkan equivalent to the heavens and the earth? Just as the heavens and the earth testify about Israel, as it says: "I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you" (Devarim 30:19), so the Mishkan is testimony to Israel, as it is stated: "These are the accounts of the Mishkan, the Mishkan of the testimony" (Shemot 38:21).


Therefore, it says: "Lord, I love the habitation of Your house, and the place where Your glory dwells" (Tanchuma Pekudei 2)


The Midrash Ha-Gadol at the end of Parashat Pekudei explains how the Mishkan completes the creation:


"Then a cloud covered the Tent of Meeting" (Shemot 40:34) – this is what it means when it says: "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it for ever" (Tehilim 37:29). Rav Yitzchak said: "The righteous shall inherit the land" – and where are the wicked? Hanging in the air? Rather what is "and dwell in it for ever" – they will cause the Shekhina to dwell in it.


The Shekhina was originally in the lower world. When the first man sinned, it retreated to the first firmament. The generation of Enosh arose and sinned, and it retreated from the first to the second firmament. The generation of the flood arose and sinned, and it retreated from the second to the third firmament. The generation of the dispersion arose and sinned, and it retreated from the third to the fourth firmament. The Egyptians in the days of Avraham sinned, and it retreated from the fourth to the fifth firmament. The Sodomites sinned, and it retreated from the fifth to the sixth [firmament].The Egyptians in the days of Moshe sinned, and it retreated from the sixth to the seventh [firmament].


And corresponding to them, seven righteous men arose and brought [the Shekhina] down to earth. Avraham arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down from the seventh to the sixth [firmament]. Yitzchak arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down from the sixth to the fifth [firmament]. Yaakov arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down from the fifth to the fourth [firmament]. Levi arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down from the fourth to the third [firmament]. Kehat arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down from the third to the second [firmament]. Amram arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down from the second to the first [firmament]. Moshe arose and acted virtuously, and brought it down to the earth, as it is stated: "And the Glory of the Lord filled the Mishkan" (Shemot 40:34).


The midrash in Shemot Rabba (35, 1) states that certain things were created solely for the sake of the Mishkan:


Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said: The world was not worthy of using gold; why then was it created? For the Mishkan and for the Mikdash, as it is stated: "And the gold of that land is good" (Bereishit 2:12), and as it is stated: "That goodly mountain and the Levanon" (Devarim 3:25)… Rav Chanina said: The world was not worthy of using cedars. They were created solely for the Mishkan and for the Mikdash, as it is stated: "The trees of the Lord have their fill; the cedars of Levanon, which He has planted" (Tehilim 104:16), and Levanon refers to the Mikdash, as it is stated: "This goodly mountain and the Levanon."


The Maharal, in his Gur Arye on the commentary of Rashi regarding the offering brought by Netanel the son of Tzo'ar, brings an interesting allusion to this matter. The Torah states:


On the second day, Netanel, the son of Tzo'ar, prince of Yissakhar, did offer: he offered for his offering one silver dish, the weight of which was a hundred and thirty shekels, one silver bowl of seventy shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of fine flour mingled with oil for a meal offering, one spoon of gold of ten shekels, full of incense, one young bullock, one ram, one lamb of the first year, for a burnt offering, one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year. This was the offering of Netanel the son of Tzo'ar. (Bamidbar 7:18-23)


On this Rashi comments (ad loc.):


One silver dish (ke'arat kesef) – The numerical value of its letters [= of the letters of these two words] is 930, corresponding to the years of the first man [= Adam].


The weight of which was a hundred and thirty shekels – In allusion to the fact that when he [Adam] first raised children to maintain the world in existence he was 130 years old, for it is said: "And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years and then begat a son" (Bereishit 5:3).


One silver bowl (mizrak echad kesef) – The numerical value of these words is 520, being an allusion to Noach who begot children at the age of 500 and also an allusion to the twenty years before his offspring were born when the decree regarding the flood was made, just as I have set forth in my comment upon the verse: "Yet his days shall be 120 years" (Bereishit 6:3)…


Seventy shekels – Corresponding to the seventy nations that descended from his [= Noach's] sons.


One spoon (kaf achat; the word kaf also denotes "hand") – in allusion to the Torah that was given from the hand of the Holy One, blessed be He.


Of gold of ten shekels – Corresponding to the Ten Commandments.


Full of incense – The total of the word ketoret according to the numerical value of its letters is 613, the number of the biblical commandments, except you must exchange the kof by dalet, according to the "method of permutations" known as a"t b"sh g"r d"k [by which the first letter of the alphabet may take the place of the last, the second that of the one before the last, etc.].


One young bullock – In allusion to Avraham, of whom it states: "And he took a young bullock" (Bereishit 18:7).


One ram – In allusion to Yitzchak, with reference to whom Scripture states: "And he took the ram, etc." (Bereishit 22:13).


One lamb – In allusion to Yaakov, of whom Scripture states: "And Yaakov separated the lambs" (Bereishit 30:40).


One kid of the goats – In order to make expiation for the selling of Yosef, with reference to whom it states: "And they slaughtered a kid of the goats" (Bereishit 37:31).


And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen – In allusion to Moshe and Aharon, who made peace between Israel and their Father in heaven.


Five rams, five he goats, five lambs – Three species in allusion to the three divisions of the nation: priests, Levites and ordinary Israelites, and also in allusion to the Torah, the Prophets and the Hagiographa. There are three times five, in allusion to the five books of the Torah, the five commandments written on one of the Tablets, and to the five written on the other. Thus far I found in the work of Rabbi Moshe ha-Darshan.


The Maharal in his Gur Arye (ad loc.) comments as follows:


If you ask, what is the connection here to the years of Adam and Noach – it might be suggested that the building of the Mishkan is equivalent to the creation of the world, and everything that was in the creation of the world was in the building of the Mishkan. There were curtains in the Mishkan, as in the whole world: "Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain" (Tehilim 104:2). And just as the stars appeared, so the clasps appeared in the Mishkan… And therefore all the foundations of the world, namely, Adam, Noach, the seventy nations, the Torah, and the Ten Commandments, upon which the entire world stands, are alluded to in the Mishkan, so that the Mishkan be like the entire world.


V. EXPRESSIONS OF THE CREATION OF THE WORLD IN THE MIKDASH

Halakha offers two examples of daily mentioning of the creation of the world in the Temple. First, during the week of each ma'amad, its members would read the story of the creation, corresponding to the days of the week:


On the first day: "In the beginning" and "Let there be a firmament." On the second day: "Let there be a firmament" and "Let the waters be gathered together." On the third day: "Let the waters be gathered together" and "Let there be lights." On the fourth day: "Let there be lights" and "Let the waters swarm abundantly." On the fifth day: "Let the waters swarm abundantly" and "Let the earth bring forth. On the sixth day: "Let the earth bring forth" and "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished."


The second example is the song that the Levites would sing in the Temple each day, which would bring to mind the creation of the world:


It was taught: Rabbi Yehuda said in the name of Rabbi Akiva: On the first day [of the week] what did they say? "The earth and its entire contents belong to the Lord" (Tehilim 24:1), because He acquired and transferred possession and ruled over His world.


On the second day what did they say? "Great is the Lord, and highly to be praised" (ibid. 48:2), because He divided up His works and ruled as king over them.


On the third day they would say: "God stands in the Divine assembly" (ibid. 82:1), because He revealed the land with His wisdom and prepared the world for His assembly.


On the fourth day they would say: "God of retribution, Lord" (ibid. 94:1), because He created the sun and the moon and in the future will punish those who worshipped them.


On the fifth day they would say: "Sing aloud to God our strength" (ibid. 81:2), because He created the birds and the fish to praise His name.


On the sixth day they would say: "The Lord is King; He is robed in majesty" (ibid. 93:1), because he finished His work and ruled as king over them.


On the seventh day they would say: "A song for the Sabbath day" (ibid. 92:1), for the day which will be all Sabbath. (Rosh ha-Shana 31a)



In this lecture, we saw various aspects of the connection between the creation of the world and the Mikdash: the Mikdash's coming before the creation of the world; the beginning of the creation at Mount Moriya, the place of the Holy of Holies; seeing the establishment of the Mishkan as a completion of creation; the many parallels between creation and the building of the Mishkan; and the practical expressions of this connection in the day-to-day operation of the Mikdash
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  MoMo on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:47 pm

do you think lilooly will ever be honest asto the reality of Zion and the Torah? thumbs up

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/yeru2/32yeru.htm

Rabbi Kook explains that Zion expresses the kingdom of Israel, and Jerusalem expresses holiness. Together they constitute the joining of the monarchy and the Temple, the site of human kingship and the site of the kingship of God. And therefore, "Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, He who dwells at Jerusalem. Haleluya!" (Tehilim 135:21).

"Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, He who dwells at Jerusalem. Haleluya!" The two crowns which crown the people of Israel are a priestly kingdom and a holy nation. The nature of the kingdom stood out in Zion, the city of David. While it would appear that the kingdom stands on its own in Israel, as does the priesthood, that is only with respect to the personal status of those who bear those functions, the function of the priesthood and the function of the monarchy. But in essence and in its inner sense, the kingdom of Israel serves as a holy priesthood in the world. And therefore all of Israel as a whole and for all time constitute a priestly kingdom. Thus, the inner essence of the holy spirit of the nation stands out in its inner form precisely in Zion, the city of the monarchy. The dwelling place of holiness, the place where the foundation of holiness of all the worlds is reflected in our world, is surely Jerusalem, the site of our Temple, which works to bestow upon the entire priestly kingdom the name of holy nation. And the pure blessing of God emerges from Zion, and the holy dwelling place is surely Jerusalem. "Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, He who dwells at Jerusalem. Haleluya!" (Rabbi Avraham Kook, Olat Ra'aya, II, p.87)


Following Rabbi Kook, Rabbi Charlop explains that Zion symbolizes the material side, and Jerusalem, the spiritual side. Joined together, they form an entity that is material and spiritual, a place that joins heaven and earth.


Two tidings are necessary, one for Zion and one for Jerusalem. "You that brings good tidings to Zion, get you up into the high mountain; you that brings good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid, say to the cities of Yehuda, Behold your God!" (Yeshayahu 40:9). Zion symbolizes the material aspect, whereas Jerusalem symbolizes the spiritual aspect. To move Zion, it suffices to ascend the mountain, "you that brings good tidings to Zion, get you up into the high mountain" – but for Jerusalem, more work is required, "you that brings good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength." While the work is great and exceedingly difficult, there is no room for despair, "lift it up, be not afraid," until you reach the height of greatness, to say to the cities of Yehuda, "Behold your God." (Mei Marom, p. 92)


Rabbi Kook discusses the absence of the monarchy and the Temple in Jerusalem while relating to the practical aspects and ramifications of this deficiency. Thus he writes in "Chibbat Yerushalayim," in his book "Chazon ha-Ge'ula":[1]


Two wonderful gifts were removed from Jerusalem, the city of the King's Temple: the majesty of holiness and the might of power. From the time that our city was destroyed, and our Temple was laid waste, and the glory was removed from our lives, these two luminaries became dark. The majesty of holiness no longer bestowed its force, the light of Divine prophecy became dim, the holy spirit ceased and in darkness did we wander among the nations. The might of power also ceased, our strength diminished and we became like walking shadows in foreign lands. These two Divine gifts, holiness and might, which are endless in their splendor and majesty when they are integrated together, were severed one from the other, and each one diminished more and more, until in the darkness of the contemptible exile, the uncleanness of heresy adhered to us in place of the majesty of holiness, and carelessness and fear in place of the might of power. (Chazon ha-Ge'ula, p. 36)


Rabbi Kook sees in the "majesty of holiness" the practical translation of holiness in general, and in the "might of power" the practical translation of might. Rabbi Kook emphasizes that not only did each one of these diminish, but also the connection between them was severed. This means that the uniqueness of Jerusalem lies not only in its containing two fundamental values – monarchy and Temple, the might of power and the majesty of holiness – but also in the inner connection between the two and their combination: earthly kingdom comprising the basic level, upon which is built the level of the holy. The aspect of might strengthens the aspect of holiness, and the aspect of holiness refines the aspect of kingship. This connection between the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of God, various dimensions of which we examined over the course of the last two years – is the essence of Jerusalem – and their detachment and severance brought to its destruction.


Thus we have completed our study of biblical Jerusalem. Next year we will embark upon a new series that will deal with various aspects of the history of the resting of God's Shekhina, the essence of the Temple, its nature, and its various functions.


May we be privileged to experience the fulfillment of the verse:


The Lord shall bless you out of Zion, and you shall see the good of Jerusalem all the days of your life. (Tehilim 128:5


Seeking the Welfare of Zion and Jerusalem

http://www.vbm-torah.org/yyerush/RAL-yy.htm


"For I will restore health to you and I will heal you of your wounds, says the Lord, because they called you 'deserted,' saying: 'This is Zion, whose welfare is sought by none.'" (Yirmiyahu 30:17)



There are two parts to the above verse: First the good tidings - God's promise that He will heal the suffering of his nation and bring health to Zion after all the blows that she has been dealt, after the period of "hester panim" (hiding of God's face) for Knesset Yisrael. God promises that salvation is near. Together with this promise comes the second part of the verse - a summary of the view of the nations of the world with regard to Zion during the period of the destruction and exile; the way in which they explained the historic fate of Zion and of Knesset Yisrael. Their historiography includes two central aspects: the first is their recognition of God's connection to Zion - "they called you 'deserted'" - God has abandoned His land, left His holy place, and Zion has been deserted and is cut off from God. And since we are speaking of nations with a religious consciousness, their explanation for the severing of this connection is the same one predicted in Parashat Nitzavim: wave cheers popcorn



"And all the nations will say, 'Why has God done thus to this land? What is the meaning of this great anger?' And they will say, 'Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt, and they went and served other gods and worshipped them, gods which they did not know and which He did not give them. And God's anger burned against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book. And God rooted them out of their land in anger and in wrath and in great fury, and He sent them to another land unto this day.'"



God exiled Knesset Yisrael from Zion, and Zion itself from His holy place.



However, we have here not only a theological-philosophical view, but also a reflection of the relationship between Knesset Yisrael and Zion. Zion has been abandoned not only by God, but even by the nation - "whose welfare is sought by none." Knesset Yisrael has come to terms with galut (exile), at least on the practical level. There is no real expectation of return, no practical plan, no activism. At most there is some sort of prayer. But beyond a glance upward, beyond the 'Zion component' of Israel's eschatological vision, Zion has been abandoned even by the nation. And this feeling of Zion's abandonment and desertion by her inhabitants is what tempts the nations of the world to dare to take Jerusalem for themselves - "they cast lots upon Jerusalem" (Ovadia 1:11). They assume that Israel has given up hope of Jerusalem and has forgotten her, and hence they are free to cast lots, according to the Talmud Yerushalmi (Kilayim) which says that although land cannot be stolen, in the event of the owners despairing of their property, their legal ownership is cancelled. So it was during the short Babylonian exile, and so it is during the longer exile. The nations of the world see Knesset Yisrael despairing of Zion, and develop philosophies and theologies to explain the severance and their right to claim the land in Israel's place.



However, Israel has a different view - not only with regard to the legalities, but even with regard to the facts of the situation. We see a third component of this verse - the halakhic view. The mishna in Rosh Hashana (30a) says, "Originally the lulav was taken up in the Beit Ha-mikdash (Temple) all seven days, and only one day in the rest of the country. When the Beit Ha-mikdash was destroyed, R. Yochanan ben Zakkai ruled that the lulav should be shaken for seven days throughout the country in memory of the Beit Ha-mikdash, and that the entire day of the waving [of the Omer] it should be forbidden to eat [of the new grain]." The gemara on this asks, "From where do we learn that we must have a 'zekher le-mikdash' (remembrance of the Temple)? For it is written: 'For I will restore health to you and I will heal you of your wounds, says the Lord, because they called you "deserted," saying: "This is Zion, whose welfare is sought by none."' - From here we learn the obligation of 'derisha' (seeking her welfare)." The situation of "whose welfare is sought by none" is an anomaly, a situation which does not tally with Israel's destiny. If Zion exists, and God has tied up her destiny with that of Israel, then her very presence and existence demand that her welfare be sought. Zion and forgetfulness are mutually contradictory.



What is the nature of this "seeking of her welfare" (derisha) that Zion requires, and to which we are obligated? The concept of 'derisha' is used in several different ways in Tanakh. The first refers to seeking and searching: "She seeks (darsha) wool and flax" (Mishlei 31:13); "And Moshe sought out (darosh darash) the goat of the sin offering" (Vayikra 10:16). A second meaning is that of clarification: "And you shall inquire (ve-darashta) and search out and ask diligently" (Devarim 13:15). Yet another use of this concept is that of demanding or claiming property: "So says the Lord God, Behold I am against the shepherds, and I shall demand (ve-darashti) My flock from their hand, and I will end their feeding of the sheep and the shepherds will no longer feed on them, and I shall deliver my flock from their mouth, and they shall no longer be food for them." (Yechezkel 34:10). This is the demand of a surety - the reclaiming of the sheep from the shepherds, or sometimes the demand for the realization of an obligation - "For God will surely demand it (darosh yidreshenu) from you" (Devarim 23:22). It can also mean the imposition of a moral-spiritual obligation, of fear-of-Heaven - Mikha prefaces the presentation of his three basic principles with the words, "He has told you, O man, what is good, and what God demands (doresh) of you" (Mikha 6:Cool.



Sometimes several facets of this concept are combined and intertwined - demanding together with seeking: "Until your brother will require (derosh) it" (Devarim 22:2) - the seeking of a lost article, and then claiming it.



However, there is yet another important meaning of the word 'derisha.' Beyond all the practical aspects of seeking, clarification and demanding, there is the aspect of hoping. This hoping can sometimes be negative in nature - "Those who seek after my life... and they who hope (dorshei) for my harm" (Tehillim 38:13) - but is usually positive, referring to great and lofty aspirations, matters of holiness and of strong spiritual longing. Of course, this type of 'derisha' can refer to God Himself - "A land which the Lord your God cares for (doresh otah); the eyes of the Lord your God are upon it always, from the beginning of the year until the end of the year." (Devarim 11:12). However, more often it refers to a feeling on the part of Knesset Yisrael: "Seek (dirshu) God when He is present, call on Him when He is near" (Yeshayahu 55:6); "And you shall seek the Lord your God from there; when you long for Him (tidreshenu) with all your heart and with all your soul"; "For so says God to the house of Israel: Seek Me (dirshuni) and live!" (Amos 5:4); "Seek (dirshu) God and His strength, seek His face continually" (Tehillim 105:4); "Is there anyone with understanding, who seeks (doresh) God?" (Tehillim 14:2).



The Ramban (commenting on Bereishit 25:23) says, "I have found no instances of the word 'derisha' in connection with God which did not refer to prayer, for example 'I sought out (darashti) God and He answered me' (Tehillim 34:5), 'Seek Me (dirshuni) and live' (Amos 5:4), 'Upon My life, I shall not be sought out by you' (Yechezkel 20:3)...." But prayer is mthe practical expression of seeking and longing. And attached to this seeking there is always hope: "God is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul that seeks Him (tidreshenu)" (Eikha 3:25). For this reason we say in our prayers, "All those who wait for You shall not be disappointed, all those who trust in you shall not be ashamed forever."



This longing is admittedly a seeking of and longing for God Himself, but it also involves a longing for all that is connected with Him - for that which represents His presence and dwelling place on earth, the mikdash and Jerusalem: "You shall seek (tidreshu) His dwelling, and you shall come there" (Devarim 12:5). There are several aspects to this 'derisha' of Zion and Jerusalem, and it can be divided into three time periods. The first is that of the pre-Zion era - before its establishment and definition as the dwelling place of the Shekhina. Throughout Parashat Re'eh we read of the pilgrimage towards a mysterious "place which will be chosen." This place must be sought and pursued. Its identity and character are unclear. Much effort must be invested in the careful search, with discerning eye and longing soul, to reveal this anonymous place. This seeking and pursuit involves two levels: the topographical search of the land for that place - and here practical considerations come into play - as well as the more lofty aspiration, because that rock and those boulders will be the foundation of God's eternal dwelling place. These two aspects are intertwined. On the verse "Except to the place which the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put His name there, you shall seek His dwelling place and you shall come there" (Devarim 12:5) - the Sifri comments: "Seek (derosh) - by means of the prophet. Perhaps from this one would think that we should wait until we are prompted by the prophet; therefore we are told 'you shall seek His dwelling place and you shall come there' - seek it and find it, and afterwards the prophet will confirm it." Only if we exert ourselves in the search will we be rewarded with Divine guidance. The search itself increases our longing, as well as removing the 'magical' associations of the place. It is not inherently different in any way - it is simply the place which God has chosen. And the search involves both the active searching for this "place that will be chosen" and, at the same time, the longing for it.



The next period is that of the churban. Jerusalem is destroyed, and there is no possibility of fulfilling the command of "you shall seek His dwelling place." Whether or not we accept the opinion of the Rambam, who holds that Jerusalem is holy for all generations, from a practical point of view there is no possibility of "seeking His dwelling place." The seeking and pursuit are no longer operative, and hence the 'derisha' must be in two directions: firstly, in the direction of 'zekher le-mikdash' - to constantly remember and never allow our thoughts to leave Zion, to maintain a profound spiritual connection, and following this, the demand to seek her welfare. This is a situation with which we dare not come to terms, and to the extent that there is a possibility of 'derisha,' of making a demand for Zion - we are obligated to do so.



The demand is on two levels. Firstly, we demand it on a political level, i.e. reminding the nations of the world that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Knesset Yisrael, and has never left our thoughts, remaining forever at the forefront of our longing. Jerusalem, as the symbolic nucleus of all of Eretz Yisrael, is an inheritance to us from our forefathers. It may not be 'in our possession,' but it is forever 'ours.' However, by law, Jerusalem is not only ours but also in our possession. The gemara in Bava Metzia says that if something is stolen and the owner has not yet despaired of it, then, if there is any possibility of him getting it back by law, it is still defined as being in his possession. We can demand it back by law. We have a claim to present to the Great Judge, God Himself, a claim and demand of "until your brother will seek it out" - the demand that the surety is paid back. The Rishonim were divided as to the wording of the blessing of "Boneh Yerushalayim" (He Who builds Jerusalem) in Birkat Ha-mazon. Some said "boneh Yerushalayim," others held that it should be "boneh be-rachamav (in His mercy) Yerushalayim." The Vilna Gaon ruled that we should say "boneh Yerushalayim" because we are entitled to demand Jerusalem not only by virtue of God's mercy, but by pure 'din' (justice). "Zion will be redeemed in judgment" (Yishayahu 1:27). This is a legal claim, the presentation of a title deed and the demand for repayment.



Both demands existed during the period of the churban. Firstly, the demand from the nations of the world: "You have developed all kinds of theories to explain why 'her welfare is sought by none' - see, here we are to be 'doresh' Jerusalem; practically, politically." Secondly, a demand that God fulfill His promise, that He repay the title deed.



The third period of 'derishat Zion' is that of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. This 'derisha' involves two aspects: Firstly, attention. Special attention should be paid even to those things which are in our possession. The existence of Zion should not be regarded as natural and taken for granted. We should always regard it as something to which we are spiritually and existentially connected. 'Derisha' is not only for what is missing, but also for what already exists. "The eyes of the Lord your God are upon it ALWAYS" - even during her flourishing, God seeks the welfare of Zion. This is symbolized by the presence of the Shekhina. And the Shekhina always remains in Jerusalem - "since the holiness of the mikdash and Jerusalem are because of the Shekhina, and the Shekhina is never removed" (Rambam, Hilkhot Beit Ha-Bechira 6:16). Can we be satisfied with any less?! Even while Zion is in our possession and under our control, we have to appreciate it and guard it as our most precious jewel.



The other aspect of 'derishat Yerushalayim' in our days is that of "seeking (dirshu) God when He is present". Seeking God not only as an address for our prayers and for the fulfillment of our aspirations, but also out of longing, out of love and awe, out of recognition that He is the all-good, the most elevated, the source of all existence, out of our longing for truth and for loving-kindness. Anyone who possesses a spark of holiness, a spark of God's flame, is among those who are "doresh Hashem," those who seek and search for Him. This 'derisha' involves a dialectic of searching on one hand - seeking God's revelation, seeking His presence, seeking to encounter Him with those tools that are at our disposal, and longing on the other hand - as expressed throughout Shir Ha-Shirim - longing for a beloved who reveals but a tiny portion of Himself, a beloved who peeps through the cracks, appears and disappears. The longing for God as our companion, as it were, is the longing for something which we know we shall never attain, something which is beyond our reach, behind the wall, between the cracks, in the faraway 'hills of Bater.' And so it is with His accessories, as it were - Zion and Jerusalem first and foremost among them; the focal point of the Shekhina on earth. We see Zion in front of our eyes, count her towers, admire her strength, take pride in her physical and spiritual growth; yet at the same time "one tefach is revealed and two tefachim remain hidden."



A Jew is obligated to be 'doresh Yerushalayim' even while he stands in the rebuilt city, to be 'doresh' those existential-metaphysical layers of holiness which remain hidden, which peep out from the cracks in the wall. We must guard that which we already have, but also long for what is still missing; appreciate what is built, but keep in mind that "even the sky and the heavens cannot contain You."



We are in the position of bridging between two periods. On one hand Jerusalem and Zion - with all their connotations for the Jewish soul and halakha - are still not in our ha. Metaphorically, foxes still prowl among the ruins of our Beit Ha-mikdash. Despite our seeming sovereignty, we still lack real control over the place of the mikdash; it remains in the hands of others. The mikdash remains within the realm of dream and vision. But, on the other hand, fortunate are we who have merited to see Jerusalem - not yet rebuilt but nevertheless in the process of rebuilding, with towers that house Knesset Yisrael. We have merited to see Jerusalem as a flag, as the heart of Israeli sovereignty.



And in this intermingled situation, our 'derishot,' too, are intermingled. On one hand, there is a need for attention: we dare not allow our thoughts to leave Zion, we dare not give up hope - neither in our consciousness nor in our actions - for Jerusalem in her full scope, her full strength and her full sanctity. We dare not reach a situation of "her welfare is sought by none." On the other hand, there is a practical demand from the nations of the world. We have not given up, nor shall we in the future. We will not come to terms with the situation. We do not accept that the nations take it for granted that there is a mosque there, and not a Beit Mikdash. And a further demand from God: "Zion will be redeemed in judgment." You promised, and now we ask, "Matai timlokh be-Zion, be-karov be-yamenu le'olam va'ed tishkon" - "When will You reign in Zion, speedily in our days You will dwell there forever."


It is important that we know how to appreciate the privilege of walking in the streets of Jerusalem. The dream held dear by many generations has come true; the dream of hundreds and thousands of years, a dream which many Gedolei Yisrael did not merit to realize. But at the same time we must appreciate Jerusalem not just as a capital which is flourishing economically, esthetically, socially and politically, but also as appearing and disappearing over the "mountains of Bater." We should see not only the glory that exists, but also the glory that was prophesied.


A formidable challenge awaits us. We have to realize that 'derisha,' to set matters right: This city is no longer abandoned. "For I will restore health to you and I will heal you of your wounds, says the Lord." We have to announce to the world - and above all to ourselves - that this is Zion, and we are here to be 'doresh' her. And in the merit of this may God grant us the privilege of the realization of the rest of Yirmiyahu's prophecy: "So says God, 'Behold, I will return the captivity of Yaakov's tents, and have mercy on his dwelling places. And the city shall be built upon her foundation, and the palace will stand on its proper place. And thanksgiving and the sound of joy shall proceed from them, and I will multiply them, and they shall not be diminished; and I will glorify them, and they shall not suffer... And you shall be My people, and I will be your God." (Yirmiyahu 30:18-22).
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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  sharky on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:50 am

Save your breath Barney.....lilly is very delusional...warped...deformed.........look at the Facts in this Thread:
Australia is mostly Desert Wasteland







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This Thread is about the Runt Continent Australia that is mostly Desert wasteland and what isn't desert wasteland is often flooded and about to be Volcanized!!!. Capiche? wave

For instance suzi wuzi/suze aka 'tru lilly/vera susa'; did you know:

Deserts comprise 1.3 million square miles or about 44% of the land area of Australia. thinking hmm wave



http://www.australiafacts.org/

Australia’s Desert Country

One third of Australia’s land is desert. Australia has 10 deserts of which the largest is the Great Victoria Desert, covering just under 5 percent of the country. Ironically, the Great Victoria Desert is not located in Victoria but is in Western Australia and South Australia. The Great Victoria Desert covers 348,750 square kilometres which makes it around one and a half times bigger than the UK or slightly smaller than Montana.

How Big is Australia?
Australia is the word’s smallest continent
noway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia

And if it isn't Desert Wasteland and flooded it's quaking, yes Suze, Australia is amongst the most unstable of Landmasses being part of the Ring of Fire.

Do you know any truths/facts? It doesn't seem so....hmmmmmmmmmmmm........

thinking hmm noway

Australia’s first recorded earthquake after white settlement occurred at Port Jackson, New South Wales in June, 1788 and lasted for about 3 seconds.

Other earthquakes recorded in early Australian history were:

■Hobart in 1827
■South Australia 1837
■Melbourne in 1841
■Perth in 1849.
The first recorded deaths in Australia caused by earthquakes occurred in 1902, at Warooka, South Australia. Two people died of shock after a Richter magnitude 6.0 earthquake.


A train line damaged by an earthquake
In 1917, one miner died and 5 were injured in an underground rock fall triggered by an earthquake in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia.

In the last 80 years, there have been 17 earthquakes in Australia registering 6.0 or more on the Richter Scale. This is a rate of about one earthquake every five years, compared to the world average of about 140 per year.

Although the larger Australian earthquakes have caused significant damage, they are much smaller in strength than the world's most-damaging earthquakes. Until Newcastle's December 1989 earthquake, the damage caused by earthquakes in Australia had been comparatively low.

Quakes that Shook the Nation
Here is a list of some of the major earthquakes to have occured in Australia in recent times:

1 March 1954, Adelaide, South Australia
Adelaide was awakened by a loud rumbling sound. This was followed by shaking, severe enough to crack walls and loosen plaster and chimneys from many houses. Although minor compared to many overseas quakes, the Adelaide earthquake was (at magnitude 5.4) severe enough to cause damage estimated at $350 million (1997 values). No serious injuries were reported.

October 1968, Meckering, Western Australia
One of the more serious Australian earthquakes in fairly recent years occurred at the small town of Meckering. Residents reported seeing ground waves as well as experiencing difficulty when driving as the 6.9 Richter magnitude earthquake struck. Old buildings collapsed, railway lines were buckled and pipelines fractured, and a 37 kilometres long fault scarp (up to 2.5 metres high) was caused. Sixteen injuries were reported and the total cost of damage estimated $50 million.

22 January 1988, Tennant Creek, Northern Territory
Significant earthquakes of magnitudes 6.3, 6.4 and 6.8 occurred near Tennant Creek in the Northern Territory. These resulted in large, long ground ruptures and a 35 kilometre fault (up to 2 metre displacement) which warped underground gas pipelines, but caused only minor damage to the hospital and some homes in the town.

28 December 1989, Newcastle, New South Wales
At 10.27am, Newcastle, Australia's sixth largest city, was partially devastated by a moderate earthquake measuring 5.6 on the Richter Scale. The Newcastle earthquake, the first lethal one in Australia, claimed 13 lives.

The devastation to buildings and other structures was extensive, which was unusual for a relatively-small magnitude earthquake. This was due mainly to an underlying, thin layer of alluvium, which appeared to magnify ground motion (shaking). The epicentre was located 15km West Southwest of the city centre, near Boolaroo.

August 1994, Ellalong, New South Wales
A damaging earthquake again affected the Hunter region of NSW, this time in the Ellalong-Cessnock area. Measuring 5.4 on the Richter Scale, it became our third most-damaging. Several homes, hotels and other buildings suffered seriously and up to 1,000 homes were partly damaged. Infrastructure, commercial and industrial losses also occurred. Insurance payouts were $38 million and total damage costs exceeded $150 million (1997 values).

The End of a Myth

A map showing the Earth's tectonic plates and
earthquake zones.
(see the text on the left for more information)
Despite Australia's seemingly low-risk situation in the middle of one of Earth's larger tectonic plates, we have had many earthquakes larger than that of Newcastle. The map to the right shows that Australia is in the middle of the Australian-Indian Plate.

The Australian Geological Survey Organisation in Canberra estimates that on average, the Australian region experiences an earthquake of at least this size, or larger, every 13-15 months.

Most of these earthquakes have been in low populated areas, so for many years people thought Australia could not be affected by this natural disaster. The Newcastle experience dispelled this myth!

Australian Geology
Due to Australia's geological position, we are prone to what seismologists call 'intra-plate' earthquakes.

These are different to the more familiar plate-margin earthquakes, common in areas like California in the USA and in Japan.



cheese

H boobies

Soooo............if Australia isn't a Desert Wasteland, flooded or being jarred and quaked it is likely that the inhabitants are going to be Bar-B-Qued by Volcanoes, yes Suze-aka 'tru lilly/vera susa' Australia has many Volcanoes and Fault Lines which shatters your deception that Australia is a fertile and stable environment.

got anymore falsehoods you want to share?

Why are you trying to lure innocent humans to that Desert hellhole?
noway



Volcanoes and Earthquakes.




Daily Earthquake activity Reports latest news feed

Earthquake and Fault Line Maps for Australia.

Is there a risk of a volcanic eruption in Australia ?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/foo7/volcmap.html


Mount Gambier ( Eastern South Australia ) Australia's youngest volcano.
A volcano filled with water. Erupted 4,500 years ago
"...volcanic activity must be considered a serious environmental hazard and risk for the Australian mainland. " Source: The risk of volcanic eruption in mainland Australia - E. B. Joyce.............................The Western Victorian Volcanic Plains are the third largest in the world and exceeded only by the Deccan in western India, and the Snake River Plateau in the United States ( Idaho-Nebraska ).

The Victorian Volcanic Plains are located in Western Victoria and covers over 2.3 million ha (10.36% of the State).
It stretches from Portland in the west to Craigieburn in the east and from Clunes in the north to Colac in the south.........................................“ There are around 400 volcanoes stretching from the Western District of Victoria into the Western Uplands around Ballarat wave and to the north of Melbourne around Kyneton and Kilmore, in some parts of the Eastern Uplands such as to the north of Benambra, and across to the South Australian border near Mt Gambier.
A volcanic eruption in the Western Uplands could potentially see lava flows and ash falls impacting on Melbourne.

There is also similar volcano risk present in various provinces in Far North Queensland, stretching from south-west of Townsville to near Cairns and up to Cooktown in the Far North. There are more than 380 volcanoes in total across this part of Queensland.
A future eruption in any of these regions would be unlikely to come from an existing volcano (as the volcanoes there are generally considered to be 'once only’ erupters).
Rather, future eruptions would occur at new sites nearby.
The geological record shows that new volcanoes in these areas have erupted perhaps every 2000 years in the past 40,000 years—and given there has not been a major eruption there for the past 5000 years, a significant eruption seems well overdue. " (3)


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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  sharky on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:57 am

le sabrage wrote:Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

lilly, you falsely claim that no one responds/refutes your 'claims' that australia is the Biblical 'promised Land'. That you falsely 'claim' that australia is the Biblical Zion.

That you 'claim' that the land of egypt is not mentioned in the Bible, that some of the events of Abraham, Joseph, and the Tribes of the Hebrews/Israelites did not take place in Egypt.

You also Falsely claim that Yahshua/Jesus 'did away' with the Torah/Instruction of YHWH-Yahweh.

You also Falsely claim that 'spiritual Israel' replaces the Jews and the geographical Israel.


ALL of your 'claims' are FALSE and I, Senor El Kabong, Monsieur Le Sabrage and Barnacle Bill have refuted ALL your 'claims', proving them to be FALSE and wrong with credentialed Scholarship and credentialed Academic and Theological Sources.

Here is your challenge. Will you run away as always, obfusicate the clear meanings or will you 'stand toe to toe' and support your FALSE 'claims' with credentialed sources that can be verified.

Truth IS NOT ambiguous and subject to personal opinion. TRUTH is FACT/Reality. Below is a Timeline of the Earths Evolution.........from the beginning. Notice the formation and dissolution of the various Super-continents. Also notice the great oxidization of the earths atmosphere event.......all supported by the fossil record. Do you agree or disagree?


The Kloo Store is open!!!!! The words you are talking about ORIGINALLY were scribed in Hebrew, at Sinai. Circa approximately 1,500 BCE............examine this authentic scientific Timeline............Notice, if you will when the Landmasses SEPARATED..........Notice if you will the Oxidization of the Atmosphere.......before you babble anymore nonsense acquire the Genesis Enigma by Andrew Parker......all you are doing is Antisemitic/judeophobic propaganda replacement bullshit...... ..


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/timeline.html



Counting Backwards from Now

60 years ago - Invention of the computer.

130 years ago - Invention of the telephone.

180 years ago - Fossil fuel revolution: coal, trains.

540 years ago - Invention of the printing press.

5,500 years ago - Invention of the wheel, writing.

7,600 years ago - Sahara desert starts forming in northern Africa.

8,800 years ago - The first cities.

10,300 years ago - End of the most recent glacial period: the Wisconsin glaciation.

12,700 - 11,500 years ago - the Younger Dryas.

18,000 years ago - Cultivation of plants, herding of animals. Homo sapiens arrives in the Americas.

21,000 years ago - Last glacial maximum: ice sheets down to the Great Lakes, the mouth of the Rhine, and covering the British Isles.

32,000 years ago - Oldest known cave paintings.

35,000 years ago - Invention of the calendar, extinction of Homo neanderthalensis. Homo sapiens arrives in Europe.

50,000 years ago - Homo sapiens arrives in central Asia.

100,000 years ago - Homo sapiens arrives in the Middle East.

110,000 years ago - Beginning of the most recent glacial period: the Wisconsin glaciation.

130,000 years ago - Beginning of the Eemian interglacial.

200,000 years ago - Beginning of the 2nd most recent glacial period: the Wolstonian glaciation.

250,000 years ago - First Homo sapiens.

350,000 years ago - First Homo neanderthalensis.

380,000 years ago - Beginning of the Hoxnian interglacial.

450,000 years ago - Beginning of the 3rd most recent glacial period: the Kansan glaciation, during which ice sheets reached their maximum extent in the Pleistocene, down to Kansas and Slovakia.

620,000 years ago - Beginning of the Cromerian interglacial.

1.4 million years ago - First firemaking by humans.

1.9 million years ago - First Homo erectus.

2.5 million years ago - First Homo habilis. Beginning of a period of repeated glaciation (loosely speaking, "ice ages").

3 million years - Cooling trend causes year-round ice to form at the North Pole.

3.9 million years ago - First known Australopithecus afarensis.

5 million years ago - Humans split off from other apes (gorillas and chimpanzees).

21 million years ago - Apes split off from other monkeys.

24 million years ago - Cooling trend causes the formation of grasslands; Antarctica becomes covered with ice.

34 million years ago - Gondwanaland finishes breaking up, with Australia and South America separating from Antarctica.

50 million years ago - India begins to collide with Asia, eventually forming the Himalayas.

67 million years ago - Asteroid hit Mexico, causing the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction. End of dinosaurs. 50% of all species died out! Intensification of world cooling trend.

114 million years ago - First modern mammals. World begins to cool.

150 million years ago - First birds.

200 million years ago - Pangaea began to split into separate continents: Gondwana to the south and Laurasia to the north, separated by the Tethys Sea.

205 million years ago - The Triassic-Jurassic extinction. End of large amphibians and many reptiles.

235 million years ago - First dinosaurs, flowers.

250 million years ago - The Permian-Triassic extinction. 90% of all species died out! Formation of the supercontinent Pangaea, with surrounding ocean Panthalassa.

313 million years ago - First reptiles.

365 million years ago - The Late Devonian extinction. 70% of marine species died out! First amphibians, trees.

395 million years ago - First insects on land.

415 million years ago - The Old Red Sandstone Continent, also known as Laurussia, is formed by the collision of Baltica and Laurentia at the beginning of the Devonian.

440 million years ago - The Ordovician-Silurian extinction. Most marine species died out.

670 million years ago - First animals.

630-850 million years ago - The Cryogenian Period, also known as Snowball Earth - the worst ice age in the Earth's history.

800 million years ago - The supercontinent Rodinia begins to break up.

1 billion years ago - Formation of the supercontinent Rodinia


1.3 billion years ago - First plants.

1.6 billion years ago - First blue-green algae.

2.4 billion years ago - The Great Oxidation Event: the Earth's atmosphere gets oxygen.

3 billion years ago - Formation of the first known continent, Ur.
3.8 - 4 billion years ago - The Late Heavy Bombardment: a period during which the Earth, Moon, Venus and Mars were subjected to many asteroid impacts, after a relatively calm period of several million years.

4 billion years ago - First life on Earth.

4.45 billion years ago - Formation of Earth complete; storm of asteroid impacts.

4.5 billion years ago - Formation of the Moon: according to the Giant Impact Hypothesis, this happened when Theia collided with proto-Earth.

4.55 billion years ago - Formation of the Solar System.

13.3 billion years ago - Reionization: the first stars heat and ionize hydrogen gas.

13.3 - 13.7 billion years ago - The Dark Ages, after the formation of hydrogen and before the first stars.

13.7 billion years ago - The Big Bang: beginning of the universe as we know it!




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Re: Debate: Snoops versus 'True' Lilly

Post  mugglez on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:17 pm

The Chosen People:

Israel is God's Inheritance



Ex 34:9
He said, “If now I have found favor in your sight, Lord, please let the Lord go in the midst of us; although this is a stiff-necked people; pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.”

Dt 4:20
But Yahweh has taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be to him a people of inheritance, as at this day.

Dt 9:26,29
26 I prayed to Yahweh, and said, Lord Yahweh, don’t destroy your people and your inheritance, that you have redeemed through your greatness, that you have brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand.
29 Yet they are your people and your inheritance, which you brought out by your great power and by your outstretched arm.

1Sm 10:1
Then Samuel took the vial of oil, and poured it on his head, and kissed him, and said, Isn’t it that Yahweh has anointed you to be prince over his inheritance?

1Sm 26:19
Now therefore, please let my lord the king hear the words of his servant. If it be Yahweh that has stirred you up against me, let him accept an offering: but if it be the children of men, cursed be they before Yahweh: for they have driven me out this day that I shouldn’t cling to Yahweh’s inheritance, saying, Go, serve other gods.

2Sm 14:16
For the king will hear, to deliver his servant out of the hand of the man who would destroy me and my son together out of the inheritance of God.

2Sm 20:19
I am of those who are peaceable and faithful in Israel: you seek to destroy a city and a mother in Israel: why will you swallow up the inheritance of Yahweh?

2Sm 21:3
and David said to the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? And with what shall I make atonement, that you may bless the inheritance of Yahweh?

1Kg 8:51,53
51 (for they are your people, and your inheritance, which you brought forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron);
53 For you did separate them from among all the peoples of the earth, to be your inheritance, as you spoke by Moses your servant, when you brought our fathers out of Egypt, Lord Yahweh.

2Kg 21:14
I will cast off the remnant of my inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

Ps 28:9
Save your people,
and bless your inheritance.
Be their shepherd also,
and bear them up forever.

Ps 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is Yahweh,
the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance.

Ps 68:9
You, God, sent a plentiful rain.
You confirmed your inheritance, when it was weary.

Ps 74:2
Remember your congregation, which you purchased of old,
which you have redeemed to be the tribe of your inheritance;
Mount Zion, in which you have lived.

Ps 78:62,71
62 He also gave his people over to the sword,
and was angry with his inheritance.
71 from following the ewes that have their young,
he brought him to be the shepherd of Jacob, his people,
and Israel, his inheritance.

Ps 94:5,14
5 They break your people in pieces, Yahweh,
and afflict your heritage.
14 For Yahweh won’t reject his people,
neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Ps 106:5,40
5 that I may see the prosperity of your chosen,
that I may rejoice in the gladness of your nation,
that I may glory with your inheritance.
40Therefore Yahweh burned with anger against his people.
He abhorred his inheritance.

Is 47:6
I was angry with my people, I profaned my inheritance, and gave them into your hand: you did show them no mercy; on the aged have you very heavily laid your yoke.

Jr 2:7
I brought you into a plentiful land, to eat its fruit and its goodness; but when you entered, you defiled my land, and made my heritage an abomination.

Jr 10:16
The portion of Jacob is not like these; for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance: Yahweh of Armies is his name.

Jr 12:7,8,9
7 I have forsaken my house, I have cast off my heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies.
8 My heritage is become to me as a lion in the forest: she has uttered her voice against me; therefore I have hated her.
9 Is my heritage to me as a speckled bird of prey? are the birds of prey against her all around? go you, assemble all the animals of the field, bring them to devour.

Jr 16:18
First I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double, because they have polluted my land with the carcasses of their detestable things, and have filled my inheritance with their abominations.

Jr 50:11
Because you are glad, because you rejoice, O you who plunder my heritage, because you are wanton as a heifer that treads out the grain, and neigh as strong horses;

Jr 51:19
The portion of Jacob is not like these; for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance: Yahweh of Armies is his name.

Jl 2:17
Let the priests, the ministers of Yahweh, weep between the porch and the altar,
and let them say, “Spare your people, Yahweh,
and don’t give your heritage to reproach,
that the nations should rule over them.

Jl 3:2
I will gather all nations,
and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat;
and I will execute judgment on them there for my people,
and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations.
They have divided my land,

Mc 7:14,18
14 Shepherd your people with your staff,
the flock of your heritage,
who dwell by themselves in a forest,
in the midst of fertile pasture land, let them feed;
in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
18 Who is a God like you, who pardons iniquity,
and passes over the disobedience of the remnant of his heritage?


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mugglez

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